Author Topic: Observation on new re-release  (Read 677 times)

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Offline Scoutzout

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Observation on new re-release
« on: June 25, 2019, 04:06:44 AM »
Please keep in mind this comes from a huge fan of LOS. The game is my favorite sci-fi blaster/tactical “SIM”.  The old fluff is great. The old minis are near and dear to my heart. I have been playing and (mostly) collecting for a long time. I have company sized elements of all the factions. ...and because I am a fan, I am going to be brutally honest.

Legacy Players
Other than the ability to fill in gaps in our inventory, there is not a lot of money to be made from the “legacy crowd.” They can certainly drive the game at local cons. I can certainly show up at Adepticon with a bad ass table and display but the audience size and success is going to depend significantly on the Internet and getting new gamers to buy into the game....new gamers who expect new units, new content, scenarios etc.

The Rules
Comprehensive, Free, UPV calcs, Advanced Rules, Optional Rules. At your fingertips, available for download.

Fluff
Quite frankly, in order to make a splash of any sort you have to offer something new. The fluff has to be brought up to 2020. The brand’s sword has to be sharpened. Is this the original story of LOS or is this new?

•   Was there some intergalactic battle and the Machine WON, eventually driving back the Alien races and launching a Planetstorm on Earth itself.

•   Is the Machine pushing to wipe humanity from the face of the earth? Are the humans and their allies defending their last bastions of industry and military infrastructure? Are the human commandos the last line between from slaughter and disruption of the entire human race?

•   Are the Humans striking back at Machine Drop Zones, Manufacturing Facilities and Resource Gathering Factories?

•   Are the Aliens slowly returning to seize Machine Satellites in orbit in an attempt to reach their human allies? Do they care? Do the Infranites still share an affinity with the Earth Dogs?

•   Or is it the same genre and story we have from the original game?

Compel me. Make me interested in the world again. Make me interested in the possibilities for other troop types.... Militia, Hackers, Ground Based Drones, Flying Drones you name it.

The Miniatures
The minis. I am 100% for the development of new basic models (UNE Troopers, Nightmares, Behemoth and Mark I) As much as I love the old minis, they suffer in the areas of scale, detail and modular nature of most modern miniatures. This is critical to generating interest (Kickstarter or not).



The UNE Trooper and Nightmare especially can be built in a modular way by a 3D artist. A single T-Model can be positioned in multiple poses and "equipped" with a variety of modular weapons. 3D printing can generate cheap prototypes...and a Scattergun, Deadbolt Launcher, all keyed to fit the same armature with very little manipulation.

3D artists are out there.

Stick with Metal, Offer Resin at a Premium, with limited runs.

Art
Art needs updating and should tie into the miniatures. The old tiles are just not going to draw in new players. Look at the tiles from Sedition Wars, Space Hulk, Aliens vs Predator etc. The box set should have new tiles 100%.

•   The industrial walks and passages are the outer levels? What about the inner ones. What about those closer to the center of a Machine “Core”? Do those tiles look the same? Are the objectives the same?

Artists are plentiful. Corridors, Objective Rooms, Counters...

Feel - Im not saying it has to go “Grimdark” but it has to have an edge. It has to be as far away from the Art in the video game as possible.

Scale Creep
Scale creep has evolved into something of a standard. Look at the miniature scales for CMON, PRODOS, and even GW. The newer games like Para Bellum’s “Conquest, The Last Argument of Kings” – have thrown the idea of blending with everyone else’s scale out the window.

Detail
The simplistic (realistic) design can remain intact, but the level of detail has to be increased. Put a 1990s Nightmare next to a GW Necron. Puppet Wars (Resin) Wyrd (Plastic)

My fear is that a resurrecting LOS with a slow burn is going to be exactly that. Initial interest, that will subside with a lack of support.


Offline Karpov

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2019, 10:08:52 AM »
Please keep in mind this comes from a huge fan of LOS. The game is my favorite sci-fi blaster/tactical “SIM”.  The old fluff is great. The old minis are near and dear to my heart. I have been playing and (mostly) collecting for a long time. I have company sized elements of all the factions. ...and because I am a fan, I am going to be brutally honest.

Legacy Players
Other than the ability to fill in gaps in our inventory, there is not a lot of money to be made from the “legacy crowd.”

...

Quite frankly, in order to make a splash of any sort you have to offer something new.

...

My fear is that a resurrecting LOS with a slow burn is going to be exactly that. Initial interest, that will subside with a lack of support.

First, I want to say I am in the same boat as you with end product and love for the system.  All of your comments are VERY valid and true, but the above quote highlights what I 'think' to be the point you may be missing for the resurrection.

Yes, us 'legacy' players would like new stuff (I've already created my own), but I think the point of Marco bringing this back is to get NEW players first and foremost.  Us legacy players will initially be happy to fill in holes, but getting new players is where the growth is and 'offering something new' is exactly what new players will get!  They have no history with this game, so the history as we know it will be fresh and new.  Holding off on new rules/models/units/etc can wait until after the initial offering, and that will be the support I 'think' legacy players will then value along with the new players.

A possible KS will really drive the future.  There are plenty of legacy KS that I have seen (old mini lines being resurrected) do well...at least pass their funding goal which assumes they did 'well'.  Said LoS KS will provide all the base materials for all the new players Marco is hoping to bring into the fold.  Once that is done, the expansion of the IP (what you are suggesting) can take place...IMHO.

Skipping over the base materials in any form would be a loss.  Combine/fine-tune current product/fluff into a solid first release (aka ONE rulebook to replace ALL current), then followed by support in way of new fluff/rules/models will give Marco something to build over a few years.  Also imagine what us legacy players can offer in drumming up interest/reviews/comments in the KS campaign framework.

KS #1 could look like this:

Boxed Set (with aforementioned rulebook)
KS Exclusive (?)
Stretch Goals (re-releasing some of the bigger/rarer models)
Add-Ons (Scenario Book AND Junction Point with expanded fluff/rules/models)

KS #2 (or post #1 retail releases) could be:

Product/Exclusive (pretty much all that you have mentioned!)
Add-Ons (small scale skirmish set...Planetstorm stripped)
Stretch Goals (re-releasing vehicles)

Regardless of what he does, I'm in.  I just want to get new players, this is where us legacy players, and tapping into our network, will be a major advantage at cons.


Offline EarthdogMP

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2019, 04:52:05 AM »
Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the insight and comments. I really appreciate it.

Overall, I pretty much agree with everything being said.

Legacy: I am not that familiar with Legacy PLayers, any input on this would be helpful.

Rules: I definitely want to make them all free and downloadable starting with clean PDFs and eventually have the printed version available. We could KS a book with all of the rules but I don't think I'd want it the basic boxed set. The new release should focus on the basics which work so well and tried, tested and true. I would even consider including a stripped down quick start rules. What are your thoughts on that?

Fluff and miniatures: Absolutely. We have to advance the timeline and create an evocative stimulating story. My current thoughts in a nutshell are as follows. We advance the timeline 100 years. The LOA have actually pushed the machines back and to the periphery. Skirmishes continue there but since it is the frontier, the inner planets have kind of placed the conflict out of mind. The brave soldiers on the outline planets however are in a continuous fight for survival. Armour is being worn out, weapons are malfunctioning and one key to survival is the jury rigging of existing equipment. The atmosphere of the game is darker with an overarching wild west (but not wild west) kind of feel to it. The first boxed set with new updated sculpts would be in the old armours but more war torn, less "spiffy." As new and improved equipment is made available via supply shipments (read as - when we release a new miniature its because logistics has just delivered a new batch of equipment to the war torn combatants), armies can be updated or enhanced. The vets on the line however would likely continue to be grisseled and tenacious (maybe not even trusting the new equipment  :-\)

Art: All of the art must be new and updated, maybe including some throwback art in the glossary or online.

Scale: I am not sure exactly what is meant here. What is your exact recommendation?

KS: THese are my thoughts and not carved in stone at all. Any input would be appreciated. To help raise money I thought we could re-release some of the Classic sculpts to the public along with the free rules and downloadable maps and counters. I would want to keep the first box set smaller with say 4 commandos and 5 or 6 machines, all new sculpts, boards, doors, counters, unit sheets or even cards for figures with quick references on them. A beautiful boxed set that we can keep at a very affordable price. I would even consider a small paint set and brush for newbies to paint their first set of figures. We will need all the nelp we can get to generate interest and insure a successful run. I will be starting a Reddit thread at one point.

Conventions: I believe this can start as soon as possible. I am talking to my friends at Fan Expo about running games there in August as well as any other local cons through the rest of the year. I am returning to Canada mid july and would like to meet with any interested parties as well as playtest the new scenarios. Anything I can do to encourage and help you guys to start playing the game at conventions would be appreciated. I will have the basic figures available by august so new players can order directly. Not sure on the boards as that is quite an investment to get started but at least have them available online as well as a fold out map and counters. PLease let me know how I can directly help you all. 

THanks and be sure to let me know who would like to meet later july and in August.

all the best

Marco, current creator and overlord.

Offline EarthdogMP

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2019, 11:46:53 AM »
Hey Everyone. I would like to share a bunch of the media items on a website I am working on as well as social media. Please let me know if I have permission to do so. Also, I am attaching a clean PDF of the black box rules to share in the media area. Any feedback on this would be great before I publish it.

Offline EarthdogMP

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2019, 11:51:36 AM »
Does anyone have a scan of the counter sheet from the basic game or a mockup that would be available to people who download the rules?

thanks

Offline Karpov

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2019, 07:21:59 AM »
Does anyone have a scan of the counter sheet from the basic game or a mockup that would be available to people who download the rules?

thanks

I was working on one to go with the 'starter' scenarios I posted.  Just never got around to finishing it.  I can do so next week if not done before then.

Offline EarthdogMP

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2019, 07:43:32 AM »
Awesome thanks

Offline Karpov

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2019, 03:55:17 PM »
OK, I threw together the counters today since I'll be away the next few days ;)

All I ask is to please look them over and tell me which ones I may have to many of and which ones I might be missing (or should add).  There are a few that I didn't include because I thought they were not used enough to warrant printing (for the demo).

I went with a 1-sided sheet (hence the folding 2-sided doors), if you want a 2-sided version I can do that next week and that would obviously double the counters I can provide/include.

Please post comments here, I'd like to know what others think so I can make the changes next week!

I'll also post a full size 2-sided map for each scenario so the 'demo set' is complete and printable (albeit come some cutting/pasting will need to be done).

Offline EarthdogMP

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2019, 12:23:47 PM »
OK, I threw together the counters today since I'll be away the next few days ;)

All I ask is to please look them over and tell me which ones I may have to many of and which ones I might be missing (or should add).  There are a few that I didn't include because I thought they were not used enough to warrant printing (for the demo).

I went with a 1-sided sheet (hence the folding 2-sided doors), if you want a 2-sided version I can do that next week and that would obviously double the counters I can provide/include.

Please post comments here, I'd like to know what others think so I can make the changes next week!

I'll also post a full size 2-sided map for each scenario so the 'demo set' is complete and printable (albeit come some cutting/pasting will need to be done).
.

I think they look pretty good. The letters seem to blend into each other, maybe a less beefy font. What about hero points or kneeling?

Offline Karpov

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2019, 07:32:24 AM »
I think they look pretty good. The letters seem to blend into each other, maybe a less beefy font. What about hero points or kneeling?

OK, will re-work this week.  I didn't have all my counters handy, so I went by memory...will add those and double check any others.

Offline Scoutzout

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2019, 01:04:33 AM »
Replying inline in red
Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the insight and comments. I really appreciate it.

Overall, I pretty much agree with everything being said.

Legacy: I am not that familiar with Legacy PLayers, any input on this would be helpful.
Legacy refers to us old school players, not to any system or style of play

Rules: I definitely want to make them all free and downloadable starting with clean PDFs and eventually have the printed version available. We could KS a book with all of the rules but I don't think I'd want it the basic boxed set. The new release should focus on the basics which work so well and tried, tested and true. I would even consider including a stripped down quick start rules. What are your thoughts on that?
Quick is good, backed up by tried and true. All kickstarters include the rules (or version), a playtest video and good, clear images of the product

Fluff and miniatures: Absolutely. We have to advance the timeline and create an evocative stimulating story. My current thoughts in a nutshell are as follows. We advance the timeline 100 years. The LOA have actually pushed the machines back and to the periphery. Skirmishes continue there but since it is the frontier, the inner planets have kind of placed the conflict out of mind. The brave soldiers on the outline planets however are in a continuous fight for survival. Armour is being worn out, weapons are malfunctioning and one key to survival is the jury rigging of existing equipment. The atmosphere of the game is darker with an overarching wild west (but not wild west) kind of feel to it. The first boxed set with new updated sculpts would be in the old armours but more war torn, less "spiffy." As new and improved equipment is made available via supply shipments (read as - when we release a new miniature its because logistics has just delivered a new batch of equipment to the war torn combatants), armies can be updated or enhanced. The vets on the line however would likely continue to be grisseled and tenacious (maybe not even trusting the new equipment  :-\)

Art: All of the art must be new and updated, maybe including some throwback art in the glossary or online.

Scale: I am not sure exactly what is meant here. What is your exact recommendation?
Size of the miniatures. If we are going to do new sculpts, they need to be heroic scale in my opinion (32mm to the eye). I like the idea of grizzled teams of vets on long range missions and striking out with little support.



KS: THese are my thoughts and not carved in stone at all. Any input would be appreciated. To help raise money I thought we could re-release some of the Classic sculpts to the public along with the free rules and downloadable maps and counters. I would want to keep the first box set smaller with say 4 commandos and 5 or 6 machines, all new sculpts, boards, doors, counters, unit sheets or even cards for figures with quick references on them. A beautiful boxed set that we can keep at a very affordable price. I would even consider a small paint set and brush for newbies to paint their first set of figures. We will need all the nelp we can get to generate interest and insure a successful run. I will be starting a Reddit thread at one point.
Yes, small and tight is key here. No extreme  stretch goals, no overly complex KS. Commandos vs Nightmares. Perhaps Mk1 and Behemoth. Unit Cards, Doors Boards Dice

Conventions: I believe this can start as soon as possible. I am talking to my friends at Fan Expo about running games there in August as well as any other local cons through the rest of the year. I am returning to Canada mid july and would like to meet with any interested parties as well as playtest the new scenarios. Anything I can do to encourage and help you guys to start playing the game at conventions would be appreciated. I will have the basic figures available by august so new players can order directly. Not sure on the boards as that is quite an investment to get started but at least have them available online as well as a fold out map and counters. PLease let me know how I can directly help you all.
In the Chicago area with some decent conventions and people I could recruit. I am willing to help for sure.

THanks and be sure to let me know who would like to meet later july and in August.

all the best

Marco, current creator and overlord.

Offline Upper Canada Games

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2019, 10:37:50 PM »
For a small starter box you absolutely need a rulebook I think. Even if it's a cut down simple rules set that just goes with the minis in the box you want the rules there on hand instead of players having to go print them.

I think a start would be just to focus on a core set, getting enough to get it out will also provide you with models to do reinforcements sets. The idea of updated models is also a good one. I would consider keeping it simple but also see if it's worth it price wise to offer retailers the specialist models...engineers, heavy weapons etc. that gives them a reason to want to carry it.

If you're planning to go to fan expo I might be able to make it there myself, my friend is usually in charge of the masquerade so I sometimes come down for it.

Offline EarthdogMP

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2019, 03:02:21 PM »
For a small starter box you absolutely need a rulebook I think. Even if it's a cut down simple rules set that just goes with the minis in the box you want the rules there on hand instead of players having to go print them.

I think a start would be just to focus on a core set, getting enough to get it out will also provide you with models to do reinforcements sets. The idea of updated models is also a good one. I would consider keeping it simple but also see if it's worth it price wise to offer retailers the specialist models...engineers, heavy weapons etc. that gives them a reason to want to carry it.

If you're planning to go to fan expo I might be able to make it there myself, my friend is usually in charge of the masquerade so I sometimes come down for it.

I couldn't agree more. I am waiting to hear back from them to see what table space I can get.

Offline EarthdogMP

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2019, 03:06:12 PM »
Replying inline in red
Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the insight and comments. I really appreciate it.

Overall, I pretty much agree with everything being said.

Legacy: I am not that familiar with Legacy PLayers, any input on this would be helpful.
Legacy refers to us old school players, not to any system or style of play

Rules: I definitely want to make them all free and downloadable starting with clean PDFs and eventually have the printed version available. We could KS a book with all of the rules but I don't think I'd want it the basic boxed set. The new release should focus on the basics which work so well and tried, tested and true. I would even consider including a stripped down quick start rules. What are your thoughts on that?
Quick is good, backed up by tried and true. All kickstarters include the rules (or version), a playtest video and good, clear images of the product

Fluff and miniatures: Absolutely. We have to advance the timeline and create an evocative stimulating story. My current thoughts in a nutshell are as follows. We advance the timeline 100 years. The LOA have actually pushed the machines back and to the periphery. Skirmishes continue there but since it is the frontier, the inner planets have kind of placed the conflict out of mind. The brave soldiers on the outline planets however are in a continuous fight for survival. Armour is being worn out, weapons are malfunctioning and one key to survival is the jury rigging of existing equipment. The atmosphere of the game is darker with an overarching wild west (but not wild west) kind of feel to it. The first boxed set with new updated sculpts would be in the old armours but more war torn, less "spiffy." As new and improved equipment is made available via supply shipments (read as - when we release a new miniature its because logistics has just delivered a new batch of equipment to the war torn combatants), armies can be updated or enhanced. The vets on the line however would likely continue to be grisseled and tenacious (maybe not even trusting the new equipment  :-\)

Art: All of the art must be new and updated, maybe including some throwback art in the glossary or online.

Scale: I am not sure exactly what is meant here. What is your exact recommendation?
Size of the miniatures. If we are going to do new sculpts, they need to be heroic scale in my opinion (32mm to the eye). I like the idea of grizzled teams of vets on long range missions and striking out with little support.



KS: THese are my thoughts and not carved in stone at all. Any input would be appreciated. To help raise money I thought we could re-release some of the Classic sculpts to the public along with the free rules and downloadable maps and counters. I would want to keep the first box set smaller with say 4 commandos and 5 or 6 machines, all new sculpts, boards, doors, counters, unit sheets or even cards for figures with quick references on them. A beautiful boxed set that we can keep at a very affordable price. I would even consider a small paint set and brush for newbies to paint their first set of figures. We will need all the nelp we can get to generate interest and insure a successful run. I will be starting a Reddit thread at one point.
Yes, small and tight is key here. No extreme  stretch goals, no overly complex KS. Commandos vs Nightmares. Perhaps Mk1 and Behemoth. Unit Cards, Doors Boards Dice

Conventions: I believe this can start as soon as possible. I am talking to my friends at Fan Expo about running games there in August as well as any other local cons through the rest of the year. I am returning to Canada mid july and would like to meet with any interested parties as well as playtest the new scenarios. Anything I can do to encourage and help you guys to start playing the game at conventions would be appreciated. I will have the basic figures available by august so new players can order directly. Not sure on the boards as that is quite an investment to get started but at least have them available online as well as a fold out map and counters. PLease let me know how I can directly help you all.
In the Chicago area with some decent conventions and people I could recruit. I am willing to help for sure.

THanks and be sure to let me know who would like to meet later july and in August.

all the best

Marco, current creator and overlord.

Thanks very much Scoutzout. We are definitely on the same page. I would love if you could do demos in Chicago. What do you feel you need from me? How can I help?

Offline EarthdogMP

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Re: Observation on new re-release
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2019, 03:07:03 PM »
What are your thoughts on who what would be a competing line of figures and games system for LOS?