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Author Topic: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.  (Read 10584 times)

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Offline Dave Chase

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LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« on: June 16, 2013, 08:26:41 PM »
Looking back at the potential of the RPG, I have been wondering in today's world what type of system would you like if there was a RPG.

Something that already exists, or a brand new rule set?

Dave Chase
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Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 02:55:32 AM »
It really depends what you want to do.

Myself I'd go with a slightly freeform system that already exists (like FATE). I guess people who like LOS would expect to like a more sim-oriented system, but those are hard to balance.

So yeah, I'd be picking up with the military-drama-space-opera elements rather than a squad level tactical simulation; after all, LOS already has that covered! For that I'd elaborate a bit on the wounds, ammo and campaign experience elements already in place; more than enough detail to take LOS from wargame to high-tech dungeon crawl.

Offline Kindred

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2013, 11:28:23 PM »
I am a huge fan of diceless systems, myself... :)

Offline Clark

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 10:37:56 PM »
Personally, my GM style involved ignoring dice if my fiat made for a better story.

We ran a sci fi campaign where we used the Traveller universe, the Star Hero system, and Star Fleet Battles for ship combat.

The James Bond role playing game is, in my estimation, the BEST EVER.  That was because the system matched the material: using the same system for LOS would suck.  So that's what we need: a system that matches the material.  David Pulver did a bang up job with his draft for an LOS RPG. It was an excellent system.  The critical fault was that it did not match well with the fig battles.

As I think about it more, and how to expand the game itself, I think of a BASE6 system. Think of d% but you use d6 instead of d10.  At it's core, you get the simplicity of a d6 system but with that extra die you get incriments of only 3% to reflecdt small variations.

The question in my mind is whether people could wrap their heads around base 6 numbers. 

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 11:10:23 PM »
Warhammer RPG to battle just change the number by dividing a few of them by 10

Many RPG stats were d00 (%) and by dividing by 10 you got a 1 to 10 range for normal humans. Works well for 2d6 system.

The RPG should be more about skills and interaction, we just need to make the stats and some of the skills actually translate smoothly between the two.

Dave Chase
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Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 02:04:45 AM »
The matching isn't too hard; there's only 6 even theoretically possible values for any given LOSBG "stat", right? SO you could translate that arbitrarily across to Fudge or FATE pretty easily. Both Fudge and FATE (just examples because I know them fairly well) have things that, like Leadership, can be played as a wild card to boost or re-try actions (ignoring a result a bit like Ld let you ignore Suppression or Covering Fire). So the translation to LOSRPG is slightly arbitrary but very simple. Different faction's Leadership and Command points would translate into a different "set" of diplomatic or similar skills. That could be fun to figure out in its own right.

Actually this would be really simple, question is whether to use such an idea for the "official" version or save it for hacks. An example benefit of an established system is, again example only: if you Kickstart, as much for promotion as for money, you get that system's fans spreading the word and pledging. You get advertising on that system's forum. You get knock-on benefits from publicity generated by their successful Kickstarter. And so on.

Offline Kindred

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 08:01:33 AM »
I do like both Fudge and FATE.....


I am a huge fan of the old AMBER diceless system as well... I used to attend a Con which was originally dedicated to Amber and expanded to any diceless game (but still kept focused on the Amber universe, since we were all mainly Zelazny fans)

Offline grendeljd

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 10:23:30 AM »
I do like both Fudge and FATE.....


I am a huge fan of the old AMBER diceless system as well... I used to attend a Con which was originally dedicated to Amber and expanded to any diceless game (but still kept focused on the Amber universe, since we were all mainly Zelazny fans)

Those are really good books - although I've only read the first five. I started book 6 once, but the sudden jump in time & characters was a bit of a jolt, and I still haven't gotten back around to reading the last 5 novels yet.
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Offline bobloblah

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2013, 03:18:44 PM »
I haven't read the Amber books.

As for RPG systems, I can imagine a variety of them working with the source material (Silhouette, FATE, Traveller, Savage Worlds), but nothing that would gel with the boardgame. However, as I commented in another thread, I think that may well be a fool's errand. The mechanics of the boardgame are simply for a type of gameplay that is very different than a typical RPG. The only games I've seen that did mini battles and RPG on the same ruleset, and did it well, were designed from the ground up to be that way.
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Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2013, 01:32:04 AM »
LOS is pretty bloody. Most people don't want the hero to die in the first minute, every session.

Offline bobloblah

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2013, 04:19:51 PM »
Exactly. Dave has an interesting idea for addressing this over in the Rules forum.
Best Regards,
Bobloblah

Offline Clark

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2013, 10:29:32 PM »
Amber is rich in narrative detail but the examples of diceless play require a GM who knows at least as much about the subject involved so as to evaluate the outcomes, as well as all those other GM-ish talents that make for a good game.  It is so free form that only in the obvious cases you know the outcome.

I had an idea for a diceless system that was a sophisticated version of RPS.  It was based on astrology in that all signs are associated with an element (fire, water, earth, air) and as well one of three "principles", for a total of 12 signs.  The principles are called cardinal, mutable and fixed.  Roughly speaking, mutable is paper, cardinal is scissors and fixed is rock.  More generally, fixed is the resistance to change, cardinal is the initiation of change and  mutable is change itself. So fixed trumps cardinal as it resists change, cardinal trumps mutable as it initates change and mutable trumps fixed as it adapts to overcome.

It's not a one for one match with astrology as far as I can tell (the supposed best matches for a Scorpio like me - fixed, water - is either a Pisces - mutable, water- or Cancer - cardinal, water;  and a Pisces does not "trump" a Scorpio as they tend to be willing to go along with whatever.

I actually wanted to somehow incorporate the elements and their interaction, but that was too much for an unfinished project that was unlikely to be published at the time.

Anyways, you have abilities and the trump will boost them to see who wins in any encounter, and then by how much.  In the initial draft, it was a 10 point boost, which basically guaranteed that the trump would ensure the success of most human interactions on a 0 to 20 scale.  So if I have 13 ability and go cardinal, and you have a 15 ability and go mutable, I trump you and 13+10 = 23 - 15 = an 8 point result.

Just to back up, if you were in a sword fight, feints and countertime (to draw the attack and then parry-riposte) would be cardinal, all out attack tends to be fixed while a defensive stance tends to be mutable.  This makes a certain amount of sense if you think about it, however it is all subject to the narrative and its context.

Then next was commitment level which determined the ratio of your success to your outcome.  Committment levels were on a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being "all-in" and 5 being cautious.  Divide your result by the commitment level to determine the level of success.  In the 8 point example above, a 5 commitment would be 1 level of success, 4 or 3 would be two while 2 would be 4 and 1 would be 8.

I didn't fully flesh it out but weapons (for instance) would inflict a certain amount of damage per success level.

The trick for the GM is to 1) interpret the actions of the characters, environment and NPCs so as to apply numbers and then, 2) calculate all those numbers.

In the end I abandoned the project as there were too many calculations.  The GMs would have to be both knowledgeble of the game system, as well as quick enough to to generate outcomes based on it, or at least something close.

Ideally, I "diceless" system is pure narrative but you need a particular set of people to pull it off.

Offline Clark

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2013, 10:34:58 PM »
I am now thinking of a "d36" system which basically takes two d6 (red-die/blue-die or whatever) with one being the primary and the other being the "pips" or fractions of the primary roll.  It's "granularity" is in the RPG zone, close but better than d20 but not as much as d%.  It strikes me as relatively simple as it dovetails perfectly with the board game.  The trick is to teach people to count in base 6.

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: LoS RPG, what type rule system would you like.
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2013, 12:46:33 AM »
Here is the rough draft of my combat system using deck of cards (and the Traveller RPG character system.)

Each player needs a playing deck of cards (Jokers are removed unless using the Joker rule: see below)
The card suites are used to determine the type of attack. The can be used to do fist-a-cuff, melee and limited range (Fire Fight). This system is designed to have fight with characters with out dice rolling (and is modified to Traveller style combat and damage).
Str, Dex and End must be assigned as one of the following suites; Diamonds, Clubs and Spades. This used in the Limited Fire Fight rules.
FIST-A-CUFF rules
Hearts are Dodges, Clubs are fist, Diamonds are body and Spades are the feet. Hearts also are considered Maneuver cards depending on the level of play.

To start the fight: Each player shuffles their deck and then draws 10 cards (plus 1 card for each level of fighting skill that they have, like boxing, melee, MA)

INITIATIVE: Each player throws out a card at the same time to determine who strikes (moves) first.
Highest card wins, if equal, Spades, then Hearts then Clubs then Diamonds break the tie. If still equal this fight round they both throw at the same time. (see Simultaneous Attacks for how this round is played) Next round they again to determine who has initiative. This is only done once between 2 players. It is done every round between 3+ players.

Winner gets to either strike or wait (makes the other person strike first). (If more than one player, the next highest initiative player strikes or waits.) Lowest player can not wait that round and must make an some type of action including a pass (see Pass below for more information)

STRIKE (Open attack): The first player of that round strikes by placing a card face up and the player who is attacked defends. Determine results then switch (or move to the next highest initiative player).

PASS: You can choose to pass when it is your turn to strike. You must pass if you have no cards in your hand and your opponent has cards. On a pass you can draw 1 card per fighting skill level that you have (boxing 1, melee 1 and MA 2, you would get to draw 4 cards).

BLOCK/DODGE: To block a strike you must play the same suite card. To dodge/evade you must throw a Heart equal to or greater than the attack card. IF you throw the exact same card as your opponent's strike card, you may imediately strike that player back. They may Block but they can not play a Dodge card.
DAMAGE: Upon Blocking or Dodging, if your card value is smaller than the attack card then you will receive the value difference in damage (ie, Player 1 plays the 10 of Spades as an attack, Player 2 plays a 4 of Spades as Block, you only loose 6 cards not 10).

 If you cannot do a Block or Dodge OR choose not to Block or Dodge, then you must loose the number of cards (in your hand) equal to the value of the attack card. An Ace unblocked is a knockout (see Knockout). You can choose which cards from your hand to loose. Face cards count as 10 damage points. Ace counts as 10 damage points and if unblocked counts as a Knockout.

If you don't have any cards in your hand and get attacked you are knocked out (see Knockout).
If you don't have enough cards in your hand to met the required loss, you just loose all the cards in your hand and are stunned but not knocked out. (See Stun)
All Fist-a-Cuff damage to player stats is considered Stun damage (see Stun).
STUN: Damage is applied as per regular Traveller Combat rules, but is considered stun damage versus actual damage. Normal rules apply for when a stat becomes zero. If a player is able to take a Breather or Lull (see End of Round), their lowest stunned stat will gain half its value back. Example: if a player has the following stats starting at; Str 10, Dex 12 and End 8 and current level of Stun damage of Str 3, Dex 8 and End 4 they can raise their Str stat by 5 (1/2 of starting value) to Str 8 Stun. Strenght stat was used because its Damage (stun) value was the lowest of the 3. Always round up fractions.
KNOCKOUT: A Knockout occurs when either an attack by an Ace card is unblocked or a stat is reduced to 0 (zero) by stun damage. A player is knocked out for a period equal to 15-End minutes, with a minimum of 1 minute no matter what the result. When the Knockout time is expired the player is awake with the stat that was zero placed at a level of equal to 1/2 of the starting value and is considered stunned.
RECOVERY OF STUN DAMAGE: For a player to completely recover from all stun damage take a period of minutes equal to the sum of 15-End X number of total Stun points on stats. Example: A Str 10, Dex 12, End 8 at the end of combat with a Stun level of Str 3, Dex 8, End 4, will take 1 hr and 45 mins before completely recovered from the fight[ ((15-8)X(7+4+4))=105 minutes. ]

END OF ROUND: Played card(s) go into a discard pile. IF both players are out cards (in hand) at the same time, its called a Lull or Breather. They can either shake hands and have a beer, agree to walk away or say 'Let me catch my breath, before I continue to kick your butt' (ie draw cards). It only takes one to say draw and they both have to draw.

If all the cards are played out of a players deck, they may reshuffle but before they can draw (see start above) the other player gets a free attack and damage is dealt by discarding the top cards from the defenders deck equal to the attack value.
The player out of cards in the deck can also call Uncle and the opposing player can accept or not. (roleplaying for any penalties if the opponent does not accept a surrender) If both players have no cards to draw from in their deck, it is considered a Lull or Breather (see End of Round above).

SIMULTANEOUS ATTACKS: IF both players have to attack at the same time, both lay down (at the same time) an attack card and then lay down a Block/Dodge card. Damage is dealt with at the same time as regular attacks.
SKILLS: Various skills and their level allow different advantages.
Types of Fist-a-Cuffs: If you wish to hold a boxing only match, you need only remove all the Spades from each deck. If you wish to hold a kick boxing only match remove all the Clubs from the deck. Normal brawls and Martial Arts (MA) fights should allow all 52 cards in the deck.
Skill Levels: Each skill level allows a player to draw an additional card above the initial base 10 cards. Each Skill Level also allows a player to draw additional cards equal to the total related combat skill level (see Pass)
Skill Levels also can effect how many cards can be played. A skill level of 2 in a combat related skill will allow one additional card to be played in an attack. A skill level of 3 will allow one additonal card to be played in defense. A skill level of 4 will allow up to two additonal cards to be played in an attack. A skill level of 5 will allow up to two additional cards to be played in defense. A skill level of 6 will allow one of the additional card played to be of a different suite than normally allowed by skill (see List of Skills).
Additional cards played due to skill level benefits must be of lower value than the initial card played in that round. A combat skill must be declared before the attack is done and all cards played must be allowed by that skill.
List of Skills follows:
Boxing, Clubs (fist) only.
Kick Boxing, Spades (feet) only.
Brawling, any suite but all cards must be of the same suite.
MA, Any combination of suites allowed.
Others, as determined by GM.
MANEUVER: If a card of Hearts is played as an attack card, it is considered a maneuver attempt by the attacking player. This means the player is attempting to either close with the opponent or disengage with the opponent. The defending player has the following choices: may play card of Hearts to counter maneuver the attacking player, do not counter the maneuver or take a free attack upon the maneuvering player.
Countering a Maneuver: This is treated similar to a normal combat round. The difference is that if the Attacker wins they may move up or down one Range Band (per Traveller combat rules) OR moves up to the difference in card value in squares (hexes). If the Defender card of Hearts equals or is greater in value than the Attackers, the Attacker may not change Range Bands nor move closer or farther way in squares (hexes) from the Defender.
Do not Counter a Maneuver: Attacker moves up or down one Range Band (per Traveller combat rules) OR moves up to the difference in card value in squares (hexes).
Free Attack on Manevuering Player: If Defenders played card is of higher value than Attackers card of Hearts, the Attacker loses cards from hand equal to the difference. If the Defenders played card is equal to or less than Attackers card of Hearts, the Attacker loses 1 card from their hand.
If an attack is made using more than one card and one of those additonal cards is a Heart, then the following applies. First complete the combat part of the card play and assign any damage as needed. Then if the Defender is able they may either choose to either counter the maneuver or do not counter the maneuver.
JOKER CARDS: If Joker cards are allowed to be part of the play deck, they are considered Wild Cards. This means that you can play the Joker to be any regular card that is in the current deck with one exception. The Joker can not act like any card that is currently in play, neither can you play the card that the Joker is declared to be while that Joker card is in play. I.e. If you play a Joker as the Ace of Spades, you can not play the actual Ace of Spades behind it in the same combat round.
A Joker Card an also be played to do a dirty trick. Dirty tricks are like throwing sand in your opponents face, sucker punching, hitting them were it really hurts, etc. This is up to the GM to determine what a dirty trick effects do.

This System of Combat will allow a Fist-a-Cuff to escalate to Melee and/or Limited Fire Fight (ie limited range combat.)
MELEE COMBAT rules
To escalate to melee, a player only needs some type of weapon besides fist or gloves. A knife, broken bottle, sword, club, a chair, etc. Being a Martial Artist also allows Melee Combat to take place.
Melee combat rules are similar to a Fist-a-Cuff with the following differences and clarifications:
The Suites are now labeled as
Hearts are Dodges, Clubs are Stabs, Diamonds are body and Spades are Swings . Hearts also are considered Maneuver cards depending on the level of play.
Players must have some melee weapon in their grasp
Weapons do actual damage as compared to a Fist-a-Cuff. A club that causes damage can either be declared as Stun or Real Damage by the attacker.
Maneuver becomes more important as to stay out of or get into range of the other player.
Skills and skill levels are still applied the same way. Martial Arts is considered a Melee skill.
Knifes, brass knuckles,  bottles all have a range of 0. Swords, clubs, chairs have a range of 0-1.
A Lull and Breather still only allow Stun Damage to be regained. Melee damage is generally applied as in a Fist-a-Cuff (loss of cards in hand) except when applied to a players stats (see Melee Damage). Then Melee damage is the same as Traveller combat damage when applied to stats.
MELEE DAMAGE: How to apply damage during a melee.
Upon Dodging a melee attack, if your card value is smaller than the attack card then you will receive the value difference in card damage (ie, Player 1 plays the 10 of Spades as an attack, Player 2 plays a 4 of Spades as Block, you only loose 6 cards not 10).
Upon Blocking a melee attack, if your card value is smaller than the attack card then you will receive the value difference in damage (ie, Player 1 plays the 10 of Spades as an attack, Player 2 plays a 4 of Spades as Block, you only loose 6 cards not 10).
 IF you throw the exact same card as your opponent's melee strike card, you may imediately attempt to disarm that player. They may Block but they can not play a Dodge card.
MELEE ATTACK: When attacking, a player can attempt to disarm his opponent instead of doing damage. To so, the player declares their action as an attack on the opponents weapon and follows normal rules for determining success. If successful the opponent is disarmed with no damage done to the opponent. If the attack on the weapon is done with an Ace card the opponent takes 1 point of actual damage and loses 1 card from hand. If no cards in hand opponent takes an additional point of actual damage.
RECOVERY: As per Traveller rules except Stun damage, which is explained under Fist-a-Cuff rules.

LIMITED FIRE FIGHT rules
To escalate to a Limited Fire Fight, a player only needs some type of ranged weapon. A pistol, crossbow, machine gun, etc are considered range weapons.
Limited Fire Fight combat rules are similar to a Fist-a-Cuff with the following differences and clarifications:
The Suites are now labeled as
Hearts are Dodges, Clubs are SnapShots, Diamonds are Aimed Shots and Spades are Response shots . Hearts also are considered Maneuver cards depending on the level of play.
Skills and skill levels are still applied the same way.
A Lull and Breather still only allow Stun Damage to be regained. Fire Fight damage is applied slightly different than either of the other two combat sections. If actual damage from a round of Limited Fire Fight causes stat damage it is applied the same as Traveller combat damage rules.
LIMITED FIRE FIGHT DAMAGE: How to apply damage during a fire fight
Upon Dodging a melee attack, if your card value is smaller than the attack card then you will receive the value difference in card damage (ie, Player 1 plays the 10 of Spades as an attack, Player 2 plays a 4 of Spades as Block, you only loose 6 cards not 10).
Upon Blocking a melee attack:
Blocking with a card of the same suite as that attack card, if your card value is smaller than the attack card then you will receive the value difference in damage as actual damage to the stats that suite is assigned to.
Blocking with a card from a different suite than that of the attack card, if your card value is smaller than the attack card then you will receive the value difference in damage to a stat of the attacking player's choice.
If you play the exact same card that the attacker played on you, you may make a free SnapShot at that attacker. It is resolved after damage and outcome of attak is applied. If unconious no, SnapShot may be made.
RECOVERY: As per Traveller rules except Stun damage, which is explained under Fist-a-Cuff rules.

Other things of note:

IF you don't want the battle to go to quickly then remove the face cards from the deck.
If you want to delay how quickly a knock out happens assume it takes 2 knockouts (2 stats reduced to zero) before the character is actually knocked out.


NOTES
Basically the playing cards became your random generator instead of dice. It was a d10 system with no 1's and heavy on the 10's (like 5- 10's per 13 cards).

If you want the simpliest with out AP's or cards, try the following:
2d6 + the total number of related skill levels (ie boxing, brawling, MA, etc)
(This replaces the cards)
Now you must declare your intention each time it is your turn.

You still have maneuver as an option instead of AP's, you test for movement.

Maneuver
You just declare your intention to move in closer/tackle or move away/disengage (the tackle was one of the rules I remembered today, you know one of things that my lost notes would have reminded me of, along with head butts, body slams and such)

Then you roll and your opponent rolls their dice against you (adding their related skill levels)
Apply the same results as you would with the out come of the cards.

As for damage and reduction of movement there are several ways. I am going to list two suggestions

Damage
1. Each hit that would normally take away cards from the hand instead counts as that many points from the next 'roll' that player does.
OR
2. Each hit that would normally take away cards from the hand instead counts as points against the current roll. Any points beyond what the current roll can stop is applied as Stun to one of the Defenders stats. (ie Attacker rolls 9+5(skill levels) for a 14. Defender rolls a 7+4(skill levels) for a 11. 3 points of Stun is applied to one stat.)
When a stat reaches 0 that player is Knocked out.

Reduction of movement
1. Track the number of successful Stun hits against the player (call this Wear Down). Each Stun hit reduces their attack value by 1 (ie. Normal die roll is 2d6+skill levels Minus # of times a player has been hit with Stun damage. Using the above example as the first hit in the game: on that player's next round they could only achieve a max of 15 for a roll because 2d6+4-1.)
Until a Breather or Lull happens which will cause the Wear Down total to be cut in half.
OR
2. Track the number of Stun damage against the player (call this Wear Down points). Compare this to the players End stat. Each time the player recieves a total of Stun Damage equal to their End Stat they subtract one from their die roll.

Eample of End tracking
Say Endurance Stat is  8

# of Stun damage   Die roll reduction
recieved

0-7         0
8-15         -1
16-23         -2
24-31         -3
etc


This does not greatly effect the die roll but does allow for a Knockout long before the character can not move.
A Lull or Breather allows the player to remove a total number of Wear Down points equal to their related combat stats. (This simulates fighting experience. The higher the skill levels the more they recover from a Lull, just like an old veteran, might not move very fast but they can always keep moving.)

For Melee and Limited Fire Fight replace the word Stun with the word Actual or Stun.

So there you go for some easy, no Playing Decks and no AP's if you wish. :)
Still fast, and a bit more to track since you don't have cards/chips to remove for the tracking.


Tracking or Applying Damage via Traveller Style Combat
Each hit that would normally take away cards from the hand instead counts as points against the current roll. Any points beyond what the current roll can stop is applied as Stun to one of the Defenders stats. (ie Attacker rolls 9+5(skill levels) for a 14. Defender rolls a 7+4(skill levels) for a 11. 3 points of Stun is applied to one stat.)
When a stat reaches 0 that player is Knocked out.


Track the number of successful Stun hits against the player (call this Wear Down). Each Stun hit reduces their AP attack value by 1

Until a Breather or Lull happens which will cause the Wear Down total to be cut in half. Which gives them some AP's back, not all but some.


NOTE: If you wish to do combo attacks or defenses as describe by skill level section here is how you do it:
Add d6 where the original rules said add a card of lesser value to the mix.
As for the type of followup, that must be determined by the player and the GM.


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