Author Topic: Melee Rules  (Read 2349 times)

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Offline Scoutzout

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Melee Rules
« on: January 04, 2012, 06:50:57 PM »
Does anyone use any variant melee rules for LoS?

When doing conversions for other systems, there always seems to be a discussion around dynamic exchange of attack and defense dice. Similar to what you see in space hulk where the Genestealer gets 3 dice and the Trooper gets 1 and whomever scores the highest on the individual dice wins the combat?

Offline bobloblah

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 01:02:54 PM »
I haven't given this any thought (whatsoever!), but about both side rolling their melee attack, highest wins?
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Offline Scoutzout

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2012, 01:19:42 AM »
omg..life on this forum?

Offline bobloblah

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 10:41:20 AM »
I was baffled by your response, initially - then I checked the post dates!
 :o
I see what you're saying. For what it's worth, I've been away dealing with some personal troubles, but now that I'm back I'm trying to jump back in and get things rolling again.

EDIT: Hey! What about the melee thing?
Best Regards,
Bobloblah

Offline bobloblah

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 11:29:55 AM »
Okay, after simply glancing at the rules and giving it even a modicum of thought, my original suggestion makes no sense as it completely skews the existing HtH capabilities. My next thought was along the lines of this:

Both figures in HtH make their attack rolls for available weapons and check Kill results. Any Kill scored may either be:
  • applied to the opposing figure, or
  • used to cancel an opponent's Kill result on a 1-for-1 basis

The main problem I see with this is that it makes the gap between good and poor HtH combatants wider. Why would a UNE Commando with a Heat Lance ever attack a nearby Assault Fiend, even if that Fiend has 1 Kill already? In fact, the more I look at this, the more I realise the elegance of the existing system; leaving figures standing around near the enemy invites swift death, and this goes both ways. The current rules and weapon stats (both HtH and Ranged) are also structured so that HtH is a tactical option. Your odds may be better in HtH than with a close-range shot, but you have to give up tactical positioning to take advantage of it.

Maybe someone else will still jump in with a workable HtH alternative.
Best Regards,
Bobloblah

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 05:01:11 AM »
The advanced rules have some additional rules for HtH don't they? Locks or something?

Offline bobloblah

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 08:55:57 AM »
Yeah, there were a few "expansions" to the HtH rules in the Advanced Rules, one of which was Locking. Basically, once figures are engaged one of them can decide to try and Lock during their Fire Action. Both roll a die, and if the acting figure's roll is higher, the two are Locked into HtH. A Locked figure can't move away until its opponent is destroyed, or they go through the same process on their turn (both roll a die, high roll for acting figure Unlocks).

Hopefully I've got that right. I don't play nearly as often any more, and HtH doesn't come up that often when we do. It's even less often that someone survives the initial attack.
Best Regards,
Bobloblah

Offline rcbecker1

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2012, 05:42:41 PM »
IIRC the Hth rules were very weak. They definately need work. You could have attack factors meaning how many dice then Weapons add more dice. Then role off, high role does one point of damage. forget armor or have defensive player make armor role. If failed  he takes a wound.
Mark one has two dice <size> then weapon plus one die.
cammando has one die then adds electro dagger for one die. He now roles his two die vs The Feinds three die.   Highest role wins and does one wound.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 05:45:52 PM by rcbecker1 »

Offline Clark

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 11:14:38 AM »
The point was always that you don`t bring a knife to a gunfight. In the Black Box only the Assault Fiend could melee for the simple reason that punching a guy in powered armour just doesn`t get you anywhere.  The Advanced Rules introduced the idea of being `locked`in HTH combat.  What that meant was tying up your opponent and imposing the CCM (close combat modifier) which then made side arms a better tactical option.  Admittedly, the HTH rules are weak because they are largely a sideshow.

Offline Scoutzout

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 12:52:54 AM »
I think the HTH rules can be expanded a bit without violating the "Knife to a Gunfight" concept. Spraying automatic plasma fire into a room filled with friendlies is not a tactic that most team members would appreciate yet it often occurs within the confines of the machine complex.

Additionally, while the UNE seemed to lack the most in the HTH arena there were some races (BE, Machine and Infranites) where HTH combat was a key part of the culture and significant part of the TO&E. ...... a Storm Angel might take offense to her martial prowess being described as a sideshow :-)

Machine Fiends and Predators (Whips, Swords, Tridents, Pole Arms)
Black Empire (Swords and Shield)
Infranite (Corpo Reapo (spelling?) and Forearm Blades)


Offline Clark

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 06:21:11 AM »
There are a number of issues at play.  First, I said "largely" a sideshow because there are clear exceptions such as the Storm Angel.  The basic logic is that you would never enter HTH unless it was a better option than fire combat, and with modern weapons, there is generally no contest.  An HTH specialist would have to be deadlier in HTH than they could be by simply shooting the other guy.

So, in keeping with LOS's "meat grinder" philosophy, you close for the quick kill rather than engaging in some drawn out sword fight. For example, if two Mk I Assault Fiends faced off, they would have a 26% chance to kill (ie., score two kills) with one blast of the Napalm-X but 44.4% with the trident&bayonette.

Rarely, one could use HTH defensively. Door opens and a flechette gunner is about to ruin the day of a Fantasian squad.  However, a point of leadership might be able to throw a guy into HTH so with the CCM the flechette gunner needs 8+ on 3 dice, which is not so scary. Unless the flechette trooper had a side arm or some HTH weapon, he would be in trouble.

There is a point about the cultural aspects (or machine equivalent).  The UNE and Fantasians mostly play it straight and only carry HTH weapons for defensive purposes, in case someone else locks them in HTH.  The Black Empire is the exception in that their elite troops will want to close with you while the peons provide supporting fire. The Machines are all over the place. The Hattins, who border the BE have specialized units such as the cavalry pack that will close for the kill.  The Infranites are a warrior culture who are all trained in HTH but have adopted adopted more standard weapons, so they play it straight but always have the arm razors for defensive purposes as one more manifestation of the "dial-a-warrior" aspect of their figs.

There is a lot that could be done in terms of rules: advanced grappling techniques and parries come to mind.  The problem, as with pinning, wounding, pips and buffs and such is the question of bookkeeping and slowing down the gameplay.  If someone has an elegant solution, then I would like to hear it. Otherwise, we are looking at optional rules and even getting rid of the dice rolls for locking and just say that once you are at range 1, then you are locked and that is it.

You make a good point about the issue of friendly fire, especially in a crowded room or a "[insert slandered group here] firing squad" situation with the target in the centre of a circle of guys with guns. If you want to get all Gun Fu about it, watch the fight scene in Ultra Violet where the hero wins a gun fight, without a gun, by manoeuvering among the bad guys causing them to shoot each other.

At one point, I was thinking - more for Planetstorm - that all fire is suppression fire of some sort, which solved certain other problems, allowed for friendly fire, but caused other headaches.

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 12:06:14 PM »
Yeah, the absence of detailed HtH never bothered me.

"Basing", ie making it into base-to-base contact with the respective miniatures, might be a good replacement for "locks", and is commonly used, but I rather liked the feel of LOS, wherein you might charge, bayonet affixed, in the hope of impaling the other guy, but if you didn't manage it you were likely to get shot full of holes and that was that.

Offline bobloblah

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2013, 11:41:43 PM »
Agreed. In practice, I never found the HtH rules nearly as problematic as they're being made out to be. But then, they didn't come up that often. It's not GW, where a bayonet charge beats firing your high-powered, gyrojet, armor-piercing, mass reacting, explosive munition rifle at the enemy.

Now, having mocked that, there have been in-depth studies that show an assailant that you're aware of within ~6.5m (21') has an excellent chance of killing you using a knife if you don't already have your weapon drawn. Nevertheless, HtH weapons in LoS only make sense under very particular circumstances, and I really don't see that as a flaw in the system. I can still see making adjustments to Locking, but unless someone comes up with a brilliant alternative, the existing HtH rules basically work.
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Offline Clark

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 09:02:54 PM »
There was a prohibition/gangster era saying: "Rush a gun but run from a knife."  The idea is that if you don't have a gun, you have a better chance of locking in HTH and grappliing rather than running away and getting shot in the back, but you can run from a knife while grappling will get you filleted.

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Melee Rules
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2013, 05:47:54 AM »
Krav Marga apparently has the same doctrine: close with a gun, run from a knife.