Legions of Steel Forum
Legions of Steel => General Discussion => Topic started by: Clark on April 11, 2011, 08:56:14 PM
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We need to throw off the Space Hulk yoke.
"In contemporary usage, commando usually means elite light infantry and/or special operations forces units, specializing in amphibious landings, parachuting, rappelling and similar techniques, to conduct and effect attacks. "
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando)
In this case, commandos are specialized in underground assaults. Space marines are any soldier who is specifically deployed by ship.
But Planetstorm troops are no more Space Marines than the Normandy invasion force.
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Take a look at HALO.
There you have the SPARTAN's, Hell Jumpers, Marines and then the regulars.
PI, Space Marines and then the rest of the soldiers.
To me Commando's are specialized troops that are better than all the rest, even in the open (if only slightly better in the open.)
Space Marines are good at ship board and landing heads.
PI are good at landing heads, hard positions and general battles where the extra armor and fire power are needed.
The regulars are the fill in the middle red shirts.
The Commandos do all the above and a bit more. They are best in tight spaces where not seeing but completely relying on your buddy is the only way you survive.
Dave Chase
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Don't forget the Assault Troopers. Pride of the dismounted Armour Corps!
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Assault/drop troopers are more akin to airborne than marines. Of course, I took the name "commando" from the Canadian Airborne Regiment.
Ship borne Commandos who specialize in boarding actions would be like the British SBS.
SSS or Special Star Service would sound a bit too creepy for UNE troops.
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Special Interstellar Service!
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SIS: I like it!
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I hereby charge you a million billion dollars in consultancy fees.
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You'll get paid in 2140 after the Fed does QE15 and the greenback is trading one-for-one with the Korean Won.
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You'll get paid in 2140 after the Fed does QE15 and the greenback is trading one-for-one with the Korean Won.
That early. Wow, I need to get on the ball and start coming up with even better ideas that you can steal.
;D
Dave Chase
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Legions of Steal
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Interesting topic, from a UK centric view, the Royal Marine Commandos specialise in amphibious assaults, raiding and hostile environments, the SBS are more akin to the US Navy SEAL's in their role. Commandos would also cover some of the roles filled by the US army rangers. how that would translate to LoS not sure, but the RM's are no Space Wombles.
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Controlling the language controls the thought patterns.
Steve, if you have experience with the UK military then your input would be useful. It would be great to create a number of analagous services for the UNE.
SIS: commandos specialized in boarding actions (hat tip SW)
SOG: a mixed force that works with other friendlies like Privateers, Infranites and Heretics.
Peacemakers: lots of EMP weapons for non-lethal engagement plus lighter weapons to engage NPI.
From my knowledge of the Canadian military, our Pathfinders are like US Rangers while the 2CER guys I trained with had the quals of the SEALs (airborne, infantry training, combat diver, demolition experts etc).
Hmm. New unit idea: UNE Rangers. They are all drop troops specialized in taking ground and preparing it for the main force to land on.
UNE Ranger Point Section
Assault Sergeant
Assault Trooper x2
Heavy Assault Trooper
Recce Corporal
Recce Trooper
Pioneer x2
Larger formations consist of Assault, Recce and Pioneer elements as full sections. Other than a few ASPs they have no fire support because they rely on orbital bombardment.
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Hmm. New unit idea: UNE Rangers. They are all drop troops specialized in taking ground and preparing it for the main force to land on.
UNE Ranger Point Section
Assault Sergeant
Assault Trooper x2
Heavy Assault Trooper
Recce Corporal
Recce Trooper
Then these would be the equal of a United States Pathfinder. They go in ahead of all the troops, behind enemy lines, and mark targets, scout locations and are the early eyes and ears of Command that decide what targets are the highest priority. Then they either wait for link up or make their way back to friendly lines.Pioneer x2
Larger formations consist of Assault, Recce and Pioneer elements as full sections. Other than a few ASPs they have no fire support because they rely on orbital bombardment.
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Currently the Canadian Special Operations Regiment, or CSOR "See-soar" are most directly analagous to US Army Rangers.
Canadian Pathfinders, if I can say it without causing any rifts, are considered a notch above standard rank and file US Rangers, in that they are not really a unit, rather they are a special qualification, like a Forward Air Controller crossed with a HALO jumper crossed with an intelligence operative crossed with a...
In this I gather they are probably along the lines of US Army Pathfinders?
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Currently the Canadian Special Operations Regiment, or CSOR "See-soar" are most directly analagous to US Army Rangers.
Canadian Pathfinders, if I can say it without causing any rifts, are considered a notch above standard rank and file US Rangers, in that they are not really a unit, rather they are a special qualification, like a Forward Air Controller crossed with a HALO jumper crossed with an intelligence operative crossed with a...
In this I gather they are probably along the lines of US Army Pathfinders?
Sounds darn close to the same. :)
Dave Chase
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And the Canadian Rangers are something altogether different.
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In Australia Rangers keep a look out for forest fires and fine you for littering.
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In Canada, Rangers, usually native peoples, keep an eye out on the expansive northern wasteland, traditionally looking for Soviet incursions on the far north. They are a semi-volunteer force who also help train regular military members in the arts of arctic survival
They have the distinction of being the only paramilitary unit that democratically elects their section commander and 2ic. Typically its the one who has the most wilderness knowledge and experience, as recognized by the other members.
They really are a unique bunch...kinda like old west 'indian scouts'...but on the arctic tundra and ice floes.
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I never worked with them but some of the guys I knew have. Picture yourself in the middle of a featureless, snow-covered expanse. The ore underneath your feet makes your compass spin like a windmill. "It's this way", the Ranger says, walking off in a seemingly random direction.
You and your buddy look at each other. "How does he do that?!"
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OKAY so now I need a unit of those guys for either the UNE or the Infranites.
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Do Canadian Rangers even deploy as full units? I was under the impression that they largely operated alone.
Maybe the Infranites have elite scouts called Seekers. One or two hero points, only use LRE rounds, extra EW, maybe some other goofiness. They occasionally get seconded to UNE units. Otherwise they always operate alone (ie. exclusive deployment) They are the closest thing that the Infranites have to snipers.
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Hi Clark,
I do have some experience of the UK military, although it is somewhat dated now, I do try to keep updated.
Pathfinders/ Drop troops- the Parachute Regiment has a Pathfinder unit that does just that, they secure landing zones and clear the way for the main drop, they often get attached to our Special forces support group to lend out their skills to the SAS etc. the RAF regiment also have a team of pathfinder types that secure airfields etc, they also work with the SFSG.
As I have already mentioned them, the Parachute regiment tend to be the UK's premier unit along with the Royal Marines for trouble shooting and conflict solving. So I can easily seem them as first on the ground in a Plant fall.
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So, how big are the Royal Marines and Parachute Regiment?
Our Airborne was Battalion/Regimental sized while JTF 2 is only a clutch of men. Now we keep one parachute company per regiment. JTF 2 has basically maxed out because to increase numbers we would have to sacrifice the quality of troops. The USMC has sometimes been called the largest special forces in the world, but even with 300 million people to draw on you typical marine is not better trained than many line troops from other countries.
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not very big in international terms, 3 battalions read here for more information. http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/3471.aspx (http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/3471.aspx)
The Royal Marines are even smaller in numbers,
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/royalmarines/units-and-deployments/3-commando-brigade/index.htm (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/royalmarines/units-and-deployments/3-commando-brigade/index.htm)
hope this helps
Steve
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JTF 2 has basically maxed out because to increase numbers we would have to sacrifice the quality of troops.
CSOR has now filled the intermediate position. They provide specialized backup to JTF2 when required, like US Army Rangers did for Delta in Black Hawk Down (for example).
"In the main, the Canadian Special Operations Regiment enables special operations and, specifically, JTF2; thus, JTF2 can focus on the precise tasks for which they are so well selected and trained. However, particularly in out-of-area operations, we see that the Canadian Special Operations Regiment would be the more appropriate organization to put to the task." (Colonel Barr, commander CANSOFCOM, in Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, 27 November 2006.
In many ways its the SSF all over again. :)
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Go figure: the Royal Marines are Commandos! :P
There are 3 battalions plus another 5 battalions of support.
For the Parachute Regiment, there are actually 4 battalions but 4 PARA is a reserve. 1 PARA is the elite of the remaining 3 and provide special operations support for the SAS etc.
The Falklands war was basically 3 Commando, 2 PARA and 3 PARA.
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Clark, how would you see the Marines and Para's fitting in to the UNE forces?
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Clark, how would you see the Marines and Para's fitting in to the UNE forces?
In dealing with interstellar battles there is a blur among marines, para, and "commandos" (who can be either).
The standard organization of the UNE battalion is very organic with an integral commando company and assault platoon. At present we have no OB for drop troops and the like. I mentioned the UNE Rangers as fulfilling that role. Unlike the Falklands, a planetary invasion is not going to be completed by your elite forces alone.
Go back and look at that post. I envision the UNE Rangers as being a combination of Assault, Pioneer and Recce. These are drop troops and all are elite (in the Planetstorm sense of the term). They have some limited combat support units with calliopes and such.
If you have ideas for larger formations, I'd love to hear them.
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Well, actually, I did have a thought about a potential larger unit in a speical scenario.
1 Lt, 2 Sgts, 4 Coropals and 30 PI troopers.
(1 Coropal is a medic)
The 30 PI troops are recruits on their graduation mission. Live ammo, only got blasters no heavy.
They are on a moon doing a drop, along with 2 missions.
First mission is clear and secure a landing zone. All the targets are mocked up Machines that shoot e-balls (these are an electronic version of paintball, that their suits will register and do appropriate simulated damage (suit control AI) ).
During the night they do rest and AAR with the recruits doing guard patrol duty (just like they would in real life. The next morning they are to do an assualt on a building/structure similar to the day before.
Now for the actual scenario, during the night, 3 different patrol individuals report that they swear up and down that they heard and saw Machine movement.
The DI's put it down as jitters, since they have seen and heard this before.
As the troop moves to assualt the structure, 2 troopers go down, complete suit shutdown? and no chatter/answer from the down suits even when questioned by the the DI's (Not normal)
The LT sends the Medic to check them out while having the rest of the troops continue the exercise.
The 1d6 turns later, the Medic screams Live Nightmares and then commo silence.
The Machines recon ship noticed the training area and had landed the day before, 12 k from the training site. They moved onto the training site during the night and have replaced most of the dummy/auto one.
Ie, half of the known exercise machines are now real. Until they open fire upon the troops, it is not known which are which.
Dave Chase
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Forgot to mention that 1 Sgt and 1 Coropal have 1 Hero point each (war veterns;) )
and the PI troopers all have 1/2 normal morale.
Dave Chase
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And here I thought this thread was going to be about GW figs (stat and fluff wise) versus GG figs...and, what's with all the hatin' on Space Hulk? Richard Halliwell's game is a masterpiece in its first edition, unmatched in tension, balance and playability. It is, however, very specialized and does begin to creak under the strain of expansions allowing for other situations than the presented bug hunts, before finally imploding with the truly aweful psychic rules of the Deathwing expansion.
Legions of Steel, with its added versatility, does suffer somewhat in playabiliy what with all the status markers and such, but certainly retains its balance and allows for a much wider range of tactical and even (dare I say it), simulatory options. It would be more fair to compare LOS to something like Advanced Space Crusade by GW or the Star Wars d20 Miniatures game by WOTC/Hasbro. Halo/Horror/Hero Clix probably has more in common with Space Hulk, as does Grindhouse's Incursion game or Twilight Creations Zombie. Note that I am firmly in favour of a massive mash up scenario featuring the figures from all of these games using the LOS rules set which I think is the only one that could encompass them all...
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...and, what's with all the hatin' on Space Hulk?
I didn't really get the impression from this thread that anyone was really "hatin" on Space Hulk; and I agree with you that it was/is a tight game. I think SH and Legions of Steel produce very different play experiences on the table. If nothing else, I'd argue that the tactical interactions in Legions of Steel are way deeper. I've often told people that Legions of Steel is the Chess to Space Hulk's Checkers. That's not meant to denigrate SH, but express the depth of LoS.
By the way, the psychic rules for SH were in the Genestealer expansion. And, while I wouldn't use them all the time, I quite liked them for what they were.
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Imitation is the most sincere form or flattery. Space Hulk is an awesome game that we tried to make better. The fact that we did that annoys GW die hards.
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Tom, I posted by last as a knee jerk response but looking back to your previous I can see we are on the same wavelength here.
And your opinon ranks high.
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I haven't played the newest release of Space Hulk but a friend has it - I have to say the plastic figs look phenomenally good in it... insane detail for plastics...
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I had a couple copies...just sold one recently, and my remaining copy doesn't include the miniatures. While they were very detailed, and arguably cool looking, they had a diorama quality that I personally didn't like at all. I found it both distracting and annoying while actually playing the game.
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I had a couple copies...just sold one recently, and my remaining copy doesn't include the miniatures. While they were very detailed, and arguably cool looking, they had a diorama quality that I personally didn't like at all. I found it both distracting and annoying while actually playing the game.
You're right - the genestealer figs especially had that diorama feel to them, IIRC - that would be annoying.
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I think they may have done that so the 'stealers couldn't be used in regular 40k. I think the Termies are excellent and the Broodlord/Patriarch is probably better than the current one. The board sections and doors are beautiful and surprisingly, the status display board for the Marine player is quite useful.
There are a few changes to the 1st ed. rules, most of the damage done in 2nd ed. has been undone and the timer has returned. Unfortunately, the changes may not have been sufficiently playtested. With the notable exception of the first scenario, it seems to be way too easy for the Marine player to win. Still, it's an enjoyable play.