Legions of Steel Forum

Legions of Steel => General Discussion => Topic started by: Clark on March 25, 2011, 06:56:16 PM

Title: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Clark on March 25, 2011, 06:56:16 PM

It looks like I have to deal with this before it becomes more embarassing than the whole "fascist space walrus" debacle.

I did not say that the Infranites are space elves; I said they are our version of space elves.  Apparently, a poor choice of words on my part. Better would have been something like "our answer to".  Better yet would have neen to have included the following explanation in my post regarding the various races and armies.

In 1994, when the Alien Sourcebook was comeing together, I noticed a pattern in the way races tend to appear in games. There tends to be certain archetypes. Elves and Infranites are part of the same archetype.

Then, 16 years later, I found that someone else had noticed the same patterns:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveRaces (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveRaces)

This observation is by no means a scientific principle, and if you read some of the examples at the link, you can see that the pattern isn't universal and that there can be a lively debate on how particular races or species from particular settings fall into various classifications. But here is sort of how it breaks down:

Archetype	LotR	LOS	40K
Mundane	Human	UNE	Imperial Guard
Stout	Dwarf	Fantasian	Orks
Fairy	Elf	Infranite	Eldar
High Men	Numenorian	Black Empire	Space Marines

Even that takes a few of liberties in the interpretations and direct comparisons among individual figures don't necessarily agree with the trope or the archetypes.

The point is that we didn't set out to do D&D in space or to copy 40K, but we were aware of the need for a limited number of races/armies. And I was aware  that there were archetypes but I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time. So those limited number of races had to cover off as much philosophical real estate as possible. The Infranites happened to match the fairy archetype quite well when we started filling them out. 

A lot of that was unconscious. UNE FAVs were my idea; Fantasian Quadcyles were mine or Tom's. So why do Infranites have jet bikes (too)? Something to do with the archetype unless Dave days otherwise.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Brother Jim on March 25, 2011, 11:28:12 PM

Because Infranite jetbikes are way cooler than anything eldar.

We just need some female sculpts.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Clark on March 25, 2011, 11:49:55 PM

Something else I thought of:

Elves live in the woods right?  Elves like jet bikes?

In StarWars, you use land speeders on land, you use snow speeders over snow, but in a forest do you use a "forest speeder"?  Hell no! you use a jet speeder bike.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Arfiel on March 26, 2011, 11:36:10 AM

I have to say that not being the designer of the game I can only speak my view of how I run my army.
I dislike the image of a "space elf" because I saw the Infranites as less fragile than I get with the whole elf image.

As for the jet bikes I see them as one small part of a larger war machine. The Infranites also have some big punch
and heavy armour.

Mostly with me, calling them Elves ruins the whole idea of fielding an Infranite army at all.

I see the similarities in the whole tribal piece, ect...
but I will always go with the predator society image when I field my Infranites (if they ever see battle again)

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: sergeant_hastp on March 26, 2011, 10:17:27 PM

I get what Clark talks about earlier. 

Just that you need a race that's a bit more advanced and technologically superior.  Infranites did share a lot of their tech with the Earth.

So, like Elves, the Infranites are few and ultra-awesome-est.  That comes through, even if their culture and attitudes are totally different.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: smokingwreckage on March 27, 2011, 02:27:02 AM

Yeah, I guess if "approachable and friendly superhumans who like, if a bit patronizingly, regular humans" is your definition of Elf.

For me, and this is probably a GW thing, Elves always seem to be light, fragile specialists. The Infranites are the exact opposite! Heavily armed and armoured, outfitted to take a reasonable sort of a swing at virtually any mission.

Personally I'd say the Infranites are somewhat close to the Numenorean/ High Man trope, while the psychic-dominated, ancient and archaic Black Empire with their ritualised and rigid battle-orders are somewhat Elfish.

To me the Infranites might be a different species, but their overall feel is "bigger, badder Humans". They approach trade and war in a very human fashion, have a smaller population and marginally better tech. They use guns, not exotic super-weapons, which is actually a bit more primitive than the UNE laser/plasma paradigm, but they've perfected firearms to a remarkable degree - like the idea of ancient heroic smiths forging Damascus steel blades; human, mundane, ancient, but also superior.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Clark on March 27, 2011, 11:24:12 AM

In one stereotypical conception, elves are 5' tall and get -1 to constitution and such.  But a broad section of fiction will have a species who is humanoid, but distinctly non-human, and they are smarter and stronger with strange, mystical powers.  Look at Star Trek's Vulcans.  They fit the archetype too, although there are different from Infranites in many ways.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: sergeant_hastp on March 27, 2011, 02:30:48 PM

So do native americans in a lot of fiction.

They are often portrayed as having a kinship with the spirit world, supernatural senses, great fighters, wisdom that would rival Yoda...

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Kindred on March 27, 2011, 06:21:33 PM

Honestly, I always though that the. Infranites were more along the lines of the predator type aliens (they have tribal look and, as we discovered in the newest movie, actual tribes)

As I posted in the other thread, I always saw the black empire as the elvish analog. Ancient, ritualistic, advanced, debauched and looking down on the rest of the universe.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: grendeljd on March 28, 2011, 08:47:02 AM

I think I agree with Arfiel & Smoking Wreckage - the Black Empire, although a very nobility driven & ultra high tech race of 'high' humans, may fit the generic 'elfish' category better, ala the Eldar. Its tough to say, though - there is some overlap, as the fellow on tvtropes mentions. Other than the coincidence of the 'Jetbikes', I don't think the Infranites quite fit any of those categories too closely. Which is kinda good!

There is also the mention of psionics falling under the elvish category, which is a salient point in the Black Empire background.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Brother Jim on March 28, 2011, 11:25:58 PM

I'm kind of OK with my Infranites being "elves".

As long as they get to be Tolkien or Celtic myth elves and NOT D&D elves.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: sergeant_hastp on March 29, 2011, 04:44:00 AM

Quote from: Clark on March 27, 2011, 11:24:12 AM

Look at Star Trek's Vulcans.  They fit the archetype too, although there are different from Infranites in many ways.

To be totally geeky, wouldn't Vulcan's fit the High Men role? As they are part and parcel of the UFP.

The Klingons are obviously Stout

The 'Fairy' archetype I'd have to hand to the Romulans, with their advanced plasma weaponry, neo-archaic culture, and 'magical' cloaking devices.  Not to mention their connection to the 'HighMen' Vulcans.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Clark on March 29, 2011, 08:41:39 AM

The Fairy/High Men distinction generates a lot of discussion on the tropes site. For LotR, one characterization has the Numenorians as High Men and the Elves as Fairies; in another the Elves are High Men and the Maiar are the Fairies.

In Trek, your Mundanes could be non-Star Fleet, or non-UFP, or even the red shirts. Then your Star Fleet officers would be the High Men.

I don't see the Romulans as the Fairy type as they don't have anything up on the Vulcans (I've never seen them use neck pinches or mind melds).  From what I recall, the only high tech they had were the plasma torpedoes and cloaking device, the latter of which was promptly stolen by Kirk. Otherwise, they were behind the learning curve. I think the Bird of Prey was originally described as being sub light, implying that the Romulans didn't have warp drive (which didn't make sense).

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Kindred on March 29, 2011, 10:12:15 AM

Personally, I think that it could be broken down like this:

	LotR	LoS	WHF	WH40k
Humans	Humans	UNE	Empire	Imperial Guard
High Men	Numenorians	Infranite	Brettonians	Space Marines
Low Court Sidhe	Elves	??	Wood Elves	Tau
High Court Sidhe	Maiar	Black Empire	High Elves	Eldar
Dwarves	Dwarves	Fantasians	Dwarves	Squats
Corrupt Elves	Orcs	??	Dark Elves	Dark Eldar
Corrupt Men	Uruk-hai	??	Chaos Warriors/Beastmen	Chaos Space Marines
Non-live/Undead	??	Machines	Tomb Kings/Vampire Counts	Necron
Horde/Swarm	??	??	Skaven	Tyranid

Or maybe the Infranites belong in the Low Court Sidhe category...



for those of you unfamiliar with the low versus high court of the Sidhe/Fae
oberon, titania, Nuadhu, Lugh -- these count as High court.
normal every day faeries, leprechauns, brownies, etc -- these are low court.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 05, 2011, 03:08:58 PM

Well...

The Infranite design/concept, as a race, was heavily influenced by both North American Tribal and Predator "aesthetics".

The jetbikes, if i remember correctly, were the first "vehicle" type unit, because a certain member of Global was overly fond of the race. 

The "tropes" Clarko discusses are valid, but, I seem to recall there was a desire to keep distinct flavours also thru the use of "squad" sizes.  Infranites were on the "few, but individually powerful" end of the scale.

Black Empire?  :(  It's a mess, honestly.  3 different people worked at differnet times on their background, and they never did truly gel as well as they could have.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 09, 2011, 03:25:38 PM

The Infranite jet bike (my only truly original concept to that line, all the rest being working drawings off Dave's concepts) came about because everybody was getting a light vehicle type thing and there was really no question that it would be a jetbike.  In retrospect, some kind of bio engineered horsey thing could've been pretty cool too.  The Lightning looked the way it did because I'd been looking at F-16s and Arctic Cat ski doos...

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 13, 2011, 05:06:25 PM

BTW, Fantasians aren't Orks, they're Imperial Guard, if you want to stick to GW archetypes...

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Kindred on April 13, 2011, 06:28:51 PM

hmmm.... I always saw the UNE as the impies....  Fantasians had a dwarvish feel to me.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Clark on April 13, 2011, 07:26:13 PM

Quote from: Vok Ytalinov on April 13, 2011, 05:06:25 PM

BTW, Fantasians aren't Orks, they're Imperial Guard, if you want to stick to GW archetypes...

I've never played 40k so my guess is that the comparison you are making is the clay pigeon aspect?

I was going by the basic look which I wanted to be Orkish but not orks (slit eyes, slit nose, tusks etc). 

Again, not having played 40k I perhaps made and error in thinking that if any race was going to run about in Fritz helmets chanting communist/fascist slogans it would be the Orks.  Although from further reading it appears the Space Marines and the Empire are generally Orwellian whackadoodles.

Last point: More Dakka (a term I picked up at the tropes site).

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Clark on April 13, 2011, 07:26:59 PM

And Tom, while I've got your attention: WTF is  Kodin?

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 14, 2011, 08:15:18 PM

  The Kodin were an avian style race I invented in some of the colour plates as members of the League of Aliens.  I saw them as primarily a naval power along the lines of, but not specifically stand ins for Conquistador era Spain (sans Inquisition) or England.  They lost most of their army in earlier engagements with the LOA and were subsequently tasked with transporting the new UNE forces.  They failed to support a UNE landing but later redeemed their honour during Admiral Iollico's deathride.
  There's a picture in Junction Point of a bunch of LOA around a plotting or conference table or something.  There's a Zoyone Hiver and next to it...the thing that looks like a long necked turkey,  is a Kodin.  Marco liked the concept of them but hated the appearance...so they likely would've been re-done at some point.  That was one of the panels from the comic.
 

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Clark on April 14, 2011, 08:24:59 PM

Page 9, Planetstorm, dude on the far right.  It's only 1/8th of a page and with the ink bleeding during printing it's hard to get a good look at him.  Mantis man looks pretty cool.

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 14, 2011, 08:49:09 PM

  I was making up so much of this stuff on the fly, it was kind of crazy, in an exhileratingly creative way.  Fortunately, it stayed coherent; I would think of a story as I did the art and then just write it down.  Marco gave me pretty much free reign and both he and Wes dealt with the more mundane but absolutely neccessary office and data entry tasks. 
  I think it was the Tabletop preview where Wes finally snapped, and put a Joke paragraph in that slipped by Marco's proof read....

Title: Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 15, 2011, 09:55:33 AM

Ah, yes, the infamous poor lost confused ^%$# buggers.

"why is it MY fault just cause i wrote it?!?!!?!?  Are you telling me you didn't proof it before you sent it out, Marco!?"

not just my designs that moved fast.