Legions of Steel Forum

Legions of Steel => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Clark on March 25, 2011, 11:41:19 PM

Title: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on March 25, 2011, 11:41:19 PM
I've been going through all the existing publications with a view to organizing the compendium I am planning.  Format and organization is an issue that I am confronting as I try to reorganise and in some cases re-write the LOS rules.  So I wanted to turn to the membership (or would that be the LOF, "legions of fans"  :) ) to get their input on what they find most comfortable, practical, intuitive and whathaveyou.

This was not a problem in the LOS publications because the basic rules were basic enough, and the follow-on publications added material in a piecemeal fashion.  We had to confront it directly in PS, so I guess that is where the evaluation can start.

Back in the day, Marco owned all the Squad Leader rules and supplements, while my poison was the complete Doomsday Edition of Star Fleet Battles.  On the one hand, they sufffered from some pretty severe rules-bloat that we wanted to avoid in LOS, but we admired the organization that they imposed on the rule chaos with their numbering systems that would have given Dewey and his decimals an aneurism. In SQ and SFB, the rules were actually designed to be binder-bound so you could remove and insert rules as they became introduced or updated (this is the same way that lawyers update their own "rules" for various fields of law). With a web release, LOS3e will be downloaded and printed, then probably punched and bindered. 

So the first question is: does rules numbering help?

Does it help you find the rule you want or could you find it just as quickly with a good (or better) index or glossary?

How much is too much in terms of updates and errata?  Would a numbered/bindered system  address the issue more efficiently, or can players keep a grip on new material as it becomes available?  How many updates are too many?

Just as an interlude, I wanted to mention the peculiarities of UPVs.  They were updated everytime we had a new publication and I expect that to be the case new material is released, especially the non-powered trooper and vehicle supplement that will not be named after an existing video game company or white supremecist group.  There is a rock-paper-scissor effect with new weapons and circumstances that is engaged everytime you change something.  Until I develop the UUPV system (Ultimate UPV) there will be updates everytime there are new rules or weapon systems are introduced. (And conceptually, I am working on it; tentatively titled KPMV which considers troop allocations among non-powered, powered, and vehicle units, adjusting for unit mobility and cluttered terrain. Anyways, until then, UPVs will keep changing. (And - where are you Tony Lin - that is the subject of another discussion)

On the up side, UPVs are simple to address because the stats for every figure will fit on just a few sheets of paper and that can be posted online for people to download and print out .

So, will a numbering system that makes the rules look more like computer code actually help anyone play the game? Would a reliance on prose and indexing be more useful? 

The second question is about an evaluation of the format that I came up with for Planetstorm: Succinct rule in bold, explanation in standard type and examples (as many as deemed necessary) in italics.  I came up with the idea before I went to law school, but  - surprisingly or not - many legal manuals follow the same format (legal rule in bold, discussion in regular type, and citations of actual legal cases in italics.)

It just seemed so intuitive to me.  Does  anyone have suggestions or comments in this respect?
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on March 25, 2011, 11:44:01 PM
I could have edited the above post but I will put the question to you separately:

Would numbering be useful in cataloguing unofficial material like experimental rules, scenarios, conversions and such?
Could it be useful as separate from the official publications?
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Scoutzout on March 26, 2011, 12:30:12 AM


So the first question is: does rules numbering help?

Its distracting. Organization and layout is more important

Does it help you find the rule you want or could you find it just as quickly with a good (or better) index or glossary?

Index/Glossary is best with logical grouping of rules

How much is too much in terms of updates and errata?  Would a numbered/bindered system  address the issue more efficiently, or can players keep a grip on new material as it becomes available?  How many updates are too many?

Updates and Errata are best handled online. Most game companies like Infinity carry both an updated errata and a rules system online and available for download


The second question is about an evaluation of the format that I came up with for Planetstorm: Succinct rule in bold, explanation in standard type and examples (as many as deemed necessary) in italics.  I came up with the idea before I went to law school, but  - surprisingly or not - many legal manuals follow the same format (legal rule in bold, discussion in regular type, and citations of actual legal cases in italics.)

100% agree

It just seemed so intuitive to me.  Does  anyone have suggestions or comments in this respect?

Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: sergeant_hastp on March 26, 2011, 10:31:12 PM
I disliked the numbered rules with the decimals etc.

Straight, logical layout works for me, in all cases.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: smokingwreckage on March 27, 2011, 02:13:55 AM
I find italics a real pain to read. A well-formatted and well-written example doesn't need continual visual reinforcement of its status as an example.

If I may suggest keeping the basic rules as a separate entity? As I get older I find more and more of my part-time gaming buddies are less and less inclined to even glance at rules that seem intimidating, but are wowed by simple rules.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Kindred on March 27, 2011, 08:47:23 AM
On the other hand, I like the decimal organization and italics exmples.  I actually use hat specific format in the user manuals that I write. My last manual was 300+ pages, and the organization was critical, since the users were both printing it and looking at it on the screen.
Being able to say: go to section 8.1.2, which references stuff we covered in 2.4.1 was really clear and useful
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Dave Chase on March 27, 2011, 10:51:08 PM
I liked the numbering system only because it seemed to make it feel more military in a way. But since I was military, I might have a warped view on it.

Index system is needed no matter what format is used. That way those who are not familar with the number system can still find what they need.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: SgtHulka on March 28, 2011, 09:38:27 AM
I very much like the decimal system. GDW/Marc Millar also used it back in the day iirc. It's even more useful now, imho, because a lot of rules discussion happens on forums like this. Partially due to the internet, partially due to the rise of the collectible card game, players are a lot less flexible than they used to be. Well, maybe I should stop projecting and speak for myself...I am a lot less flexible than I used to be. I like to make a hard and fast distinction between official and house rule, and, again, a numbered system helps facilitate that. Finally, as rule books become updated and/or re-printed in new formats, or rules become re-printed in new supplements, the numbered system helps clarify what's new and what's old.

I also love examples, the more the better. Creatively/aesthetically, my favorite examples are ones that both illuminate the rules and provide flavor text for the game. A series of examples that each pick up where the last left off, telling a story while following the adventures of a commando squad or a misfit squad cut off from HQ and penetrating deeper into a machine complex, for example. Personally, I do like examples to be in italics, but I understand if it's hard to read. I do want examples formatted in such a way that they're obviously examples, however. It could just be consistent indenting.

Miniatures gamers love full color photographs of toys in action. That might have been one area where Planetstorm fell down. The color plates were mostly art, not photographs, and the few photographs that it did have were static portraits...there were no awesome shots of minis in lovingly sculpted terrain. This probably isn't so necessary for a pdf style project that isn't designed to compete with the likes of GW or Osprey Publishing, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: grendeljd on March 28, 2011, 09:43:28 AM
I think you could get away with having the numbering system there for those who have an affinity for it, so long as the whole thing is couched in solid graphic design. That way you can have numbers present but be more subtle about it, stressing the text layout instead. I certainly think organization of the whole is key.

I have done two tabletop mini's gamebook layouts, & one was a whopping 255 pager [Kindred, you've got me beat with your user manuals, but seriously - it was enormous for a mini's game!]. I was given free reign to assemble all the various components into what I thought flowed together in an accessible manner. I can't recall if it originally had a full decimal / sub-decimal numbering system to it [ala Planetstorm], but I did keep more simplified numbering for broad rules subjects in place. The first half contained rules, the second half contained army backgrounds, unit/figure/weapon/vehicle stats etc all grouped per 'race' as is done in LoS. I then had summary tables, player stat sheets & templates in the very back. I also included tabs on the outer margin of every page for easy reference by flipping to various sections, which you may want to consider. Mine were simple, but if you look at what other games are doing these days, that kind of thing can have strong visual impact on the layout as well.

A thorough Table Of Contents / Index is definitely essential to any book that large [as Planetstorm has].

In those books, I also followed what you've layed out as your basic format - Rule title in bold, description in standard & examples in italics. I got that format from Demian Rose, who likely was influenced by what you did! I took it a step further and made the examples with a separate graphic to help break up the monotony of text on white paper. You can view a demo of the rules portion at;  http://www.mj12games.com/defiance/ (http://www.mj12games.com/defiance/)  The link to a demo pdf is on the right hand side. In fact, I'd be willing to bet you [Clark] could get a free full copy if you talk to Demian, since you are listed in the credits as a playtester :)

Personally, I would never go for a 'punched & bindered' download - though I am fussy. Not to say I wouldn't want a downloadable copy, I would just take it somewhere to get it nicely printed and bound. A lot of companies are doing print-on-demand, which would be the ideal and most appealing way to go - that way you get a pdf copy but also a book gets sent to you in the mail [eventually - it seems some sites are starting to impose minimum quantities of a title being ordered prior to printing off a small run]. 

RPGNow.com seems to be a popular site for all things gaming [including mini's rules] that seems to have a good set-up.

As far as updates & errata, I agree with others here that that could be kept to online downloads, unless certain updates became sizeable enough to collect in a separate supplement.

Smoking wreckage may be onto something with the suggestion of keeping rules as a separate download... and then the background as another collected book. That whole short attention span thingie seems to be a prevalent spreading disease, and keeping LoS in smaller doses may help it's appeal factor to a whole new generation of players out there... personally I am ok with one big fat book that has it all, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: grendeljd on March 28, 2011, 09:55:04 AM
Creatively/aesthetically, my favorite examples are ones that both illuminate the rules and provide flavor text for the game. A series of examples that each pick up where the last left off, telling a story while following the adventures of a commando squad or a misfit squad cut off from HQ and penetrating deeper into a machine complex, for example. Personally, I do like examples to be in italics, but I understand if it's hard to read. I do want examples formatted in such a way that they're obviously examples, however.

I'm with you on that, SgtHulka - I think some of the examples in the Defiance book were interrelated continued 'stories' where possible. It helps keeps interest up reading through the rules.

Miniatures gamers love full color photographs of toys in action. That might have been one area where Planetstorm fell down. The color plates were mostly art, not photographs, and the few photographs that it did have were static portraits...there were no awesome shots of minis in lovingly sculpted terrain. This probably isn't so necessary for a pdf style project that isn't designed to compete with the likes of GW or Osprey Publishing, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I liked seeing the colour templates in Planetstorm, but I also found the colour pics of mini's to be dissapointing - many were pixelated and hard to see. You raise a valid point, the lack of model backgrounds on that first page was a detraction as well.

It is much easier to do bold page layouts now than it was then, so I don't think LoS3e should be handled with any less enthusiasm or quality standard than is present in the current modern competition out there.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Arfiel on March 28, 2011, 01:14:16 PM
I like the idea of having rules with examples together. Those of us that are true geeks and having played many games have no real trouble figuring things out. But if my ten year old son wants to pick up the rules it sure would help him.

I like a numbered system but I don't feel it is as visually attractive as headings and sub headings ect..
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: YojimboUsaka on April 02, 2011, 06:32:58 PM
I personally like the decimal system.  Works really well when you start adding rules variants and such. 

The bold, plain, italics format for rules is very nice.  Keeps the bare esentials readily findable but the detailed work up right there with it. 

Any more the books have to be 'pretty' to get any kind of mass appeal.  Hard to get anyone really interested when I show them the black and white book with line drawings but once I start pulling out the mini's and terrain things pick up quickly.

Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 02, 2011, 07:10:46 PM
Perhaps we can make a distinction between simpler examples - which could still be in italics but not more than one or two sentences - and narrative examples with named characters, colour commentary and other fluf. These could be in a text box but in a font easier on the eyes than italics.

Another option, which is related, is an extended play example side-by-side with a short story. Several games have done this but the one that stands out for me was the James Bond Role Playing Game.  It is layed out on  letter-size portrait in two columns. The left (or outer) column reads like a short story while the right (or inner) column explains the mechanics, dice rolls and such.  A variation is to have the explanation in a narrative form like you are reading a story about two people playing the game, including their own comments, curses, taunts and such.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: YojimboUsaka on April 03, 2011, 02:42:46 AM
I like the narrative of the story with the mechanics explained as it happens.

Gives not only the mechanics of what your rules are trying to do but the effect of those rules in the 'real world' situation.

That and I love a good story.

Chuk
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: sergeant_hastp on April 03, 2011, 07:16:42 AM

Another option, which is related, is an extended play example side-by-side with a short story. Several games have done this but the one that stands out for me was the James Bond Role Playing Game.  It is layed out on  letter-size portrait in two columns. The left (or outer) column reads like a short story while the right (or inner) column explains the mechanics, dice rolls and such. 

This is great.  I remember that RPG.

Quote
A variation is to have the explanation in a narrative form like you are reading a story about two people playing the game, including their own comments, curses, taunts and such.

This would be patronizingly annoying.

Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Arfiel on April 03, 2011, 09:26:43 AM
I have to agree with sergeant_hastp.
A real story line with direct rules would be great, and clear for younger players.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 03, 2011, 05:17:34 PM
How about using a numbering system but you make it look like it is a secondary consideration:

KILL NUMBERS [LOS ROE Section 4.3]

Rather than

4.3 KILL NUMBERS

I find Dave's argument somewhat compelling: for no other reason, a numbering system gives a professional military feel to the whole experience.

If I thought that we were going to engage in a great bout of rule bloat then it would be decisive because as both Kindred and I have observed, that is the way complex rule systems (legal or technical) organize themselves.

So maybe we put it as an aside with a numbered index for those that appreciate it.

---

Maybe we have a new genre of fiction here: explanatory or elaborative fiction. 

The twin-column narrative/explanation model with a briefing and debriefing could be something unique to LOS if it was developed.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Arfiel on April 03, 2011, 05:49:19 PM
I have to say that when I heard the twin column narrative/explanation I thought I could see Sergeant_hastp doing something like that. I hate to throw his hat in the ring but if you ask nicely I am sure he would throw together some good examples.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 03, 2011, 05:56:54 PM
Seargen_hasp

It seems you have been "voluntold".
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Arfiel on April 03, 2011, 11:47:22 PM
HAHA ... I wouldn't go that far.
It is that after I read the description of what you wanted to do I couldn't help thinking about the house rules and games that Sergeant_hastp wrote for our games and couldn't help but think how his style regarding rules explanation and narrative would suit this style well.

See now you made go make a post like this and his ego is going to get all inflated. damn !
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: bobloblah on April 04, 2011, 12:01:22 AM
I don't think the decimal system is so fantastic nowadays. I tend to view it as a holdover from older games, and as something that no major game is really using now. Having said that, I think it can still be there, it just can't be the focus. What I mean by that is that:
I do not think that ditching the decimal system will harm Legions of Steel or Planetstorm at all. But then, I also think one should run screaming from anything that would get LoS compared to ASL. Way more important is a good index. Lack of one is something that a lot of games get trashed for. Don't make LoS one of those  games. A Glossary is also a very good idea. Which reminds me, I need to ask Kindred about templates so I can include a glossary in the wiki.

On the question of examples, I think that examples are crucial. I'm not so sure simple italic text is the best, however. I think it works fine for short, to-the-point examples embedded in the rule text, but I think more involved or lengthy examples are better dealt with in sidebars, graphically set apart and clearly labeled as such. Ultimately, if the graphic resources are available, the second option is almost always better.

Would it be helpful if I posted example images of this stuff from other rulebooks, or do you have access to some other modern rulebooks?
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 04, 2011, 09:58:13 PM
Admittedly, I have not been doing a lot of gaming for the past several years and not in any state-of-the-art gaming systems.  I have read GURPS and D&D 4e.  The latter I found interesting but I am not sure if we can take much from it.

It has exposition in normal text and then shaded boxes that usually have bullet points to state the rules.  Most examples are graphic, with a 1/4 page illustration while non-visual examples that involve, say, arithmetic simply go Example: Dorwin the Ranger calculates his AC by. . .
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 15, 2011, 11:33:54 PM
Here is a simple but manpower intensive fix, given that I have no intention of killing trees personally and selling the books:

1) The book is released online as a PDF
2) We find a POD option for those who want it professionally perfect bound.
3) A modified rule set is put out (I don't know if "released" or "published" are the right words) that alpha-numbers the rules

The latter can be done internally for revision purposes, and those who find it easier to print the update, 3-hole punch it, replace and insert, then they can keep a current rulebook.

It would be more work initially for me but if things change it is a lot easier to keep track of it.

Having said that, I would like 3e to stand alone as a complete system with few tweaks to be expected or necessary.

TypoPlanetstorm is another story, expecially to follow up with Stormfront (as it was) which adds the rock-paper-scissor element of non-powered infantry and (light) vehicles.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 15, 2011, 11:45:25 PM
Setting aside the numbering issues, how modular or "chunky" should the organization be.

My present vision is to re-release the basic Rules of Engagement, the 3e Compendium, with the Rules Matrix being integral to allow players to customize their gaming experience.

What I take from some comments is that the compendium would not be ideal and that various game mechanics should be broken up in to separate publications so that the prospect of printing and reading 300 pages is removed and players can absorb 64 page chunks (or some othe rnumber) on a pick-and-choose basis.

As with the rule numbering system discussed, all of these options can be accomodated, but the question is at what manpower cost?
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 16, 2011, 01:12:37 AM
NB: I argue my case based on limited experience. little care is taken, and no responsibility is accepted. If affected, avoid alcohol and do not operate heavy machinery.

I think there's two advantages to modular release: one, people often don't like big books. Two: while you have all or most rules prepped for "internal" release, possibly using a collaborative online platform of some sort, you only have to have them fully formatted, decoratively embroidered, and covered in little stick-on sequins one release at a time. Oh, the third advantage: you can price the rulebook PDF under some psychological price-point yet to be determined, but still get a reasonable total revenue from folks who want "the lot" with bacon.

The other advantage is that you get a rep for "ongoing support". This usually means "I saw another headline on TMP", at least on TMP. By spreading out the releases you give people more time to trip over one of your presumably gorgeous covers and feel compelled to buy it, you possibly get repeat reviews from review sites (another almost-free advertising service).

I don't know how easy it is to set-up, but I can offer some proof-reading, spell-checking and editing.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 16, 2011, 01:16:53 AM
That numbering system makes me think of a wiki, or a document generated from a database. Uh, I have nothing concrete to offer in either case.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: grendeljd on April 20, 2011, 09:19:45 AM
I tend to agree with SW - modular releases may be the better route here, only in the interest of not having a single mega sized volume with a high price tag... the 'Defiance' book I did for MJ12 games has this issue. I have heard the odd complaint about it being too big to digest.

It makes for a great and simple marketing/advertising plan to have multiple releases springing up in the news, provided you don't turn people off by appearing to milk the system with too many.

The problem I see is how to divvy up LoS if you go that route... Back in the day, our gaming group found the Junction Point book to be a great 'go-to' source for all the up to date army stats in one place, and it was the most commonly used during games. We of course had to refer to the various supplements for rules clarifications in-game as well... but with a re-release, would you want to repeat the past and have a basic rules, advanced rules, & alien sourcebook all over again? Maybe - I think a smaller core rulebook with UNE & Machine stats as well as a few starter scenarios would be good. Advanced/optional rules as a stand alone without any army stats but a few more scenarios would probably work.

Alien sourcebook? What about the idea of a single smaller supplement book for each army? Is there enough material per race to do that? I would hate to have it compared to GW in any way, but if the price point is right for a download/print-on-demand copy, I think it could do very well. It seems to be a common tactic across the board anyway [that AT-43 game did it very well and for a decent price too]

Then each race could have a little more attention devoted to their background, have more art devoted to them [I'd be up for that] and all the current fig's stated up in in one spot. Bringing a print-off stat sheet from the supplement to a game would be as easy this way as it was to carry Junction Point around in the past.

And you could do mini-scenario/campaign packs with a few background updates 'till the cows come home...
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 20, 2011, 10:09:39 AM
My guess would be: basic rules first up with the basic LoS and UNE figures. Knowing all the weapons rules is a big deal with this game so I'd limit it to stuff that sticks with the common rules. My starting-point is the Black Box as I never saw the Blue Box, but for a download you don't want to be that sparse. Hint at the more expansive UNE and LOS lists, add some stuff that spices the game up without adding too many extra rules. Yes, all subjective points I know. (Ideally you wouldn't overwhelm anyone, wouldn't disappoint anyone, and would leave everyone looking for more. Never going to happen. Just the ideal.)

Then I would imagine, Advanced. Advanced and optional rules. This should basically be a bit of a rules-junkies' paradise with lots of options and tweaks, and guidelines for introducing rules (including "by mutual consent only" for the far-out or very detailed stuff).

Lots of possibilities here, one of which is to bring in all or some UNE and LOS (depending on the next step, see below) and IMO, the basic squad for each of the Alien empires, with a very short blurb on who they are and what they do. This would be good if the aliens weren't back in production yet but/and you could get their basic troopers out soon. Possibly keep the Angel, T85, ASP and maybe Mk3 for the full army lists. The Angel was part of the backbone BE boxed set, but I think she might make the BE "book" a let-down?

Then, IF you go with downloads, you do pretty and complete army lists one at a time for the "Aliens" AND for each of the UNE and LoS. The trick is to take full advantage of the format and make something very nice, and very cheap. Maybe the LOS and UNE should be half price, since your customer has already paid for them in part. The UNE and LoS would of course be complete, including all earlier stuff for those armies.

I think people will feel they're getting value as long as each chunk is cheap enough and gives them stunning new art to ogle, and of course new tactics to cause their opponents some grief.

In summary: rules, then optional rules, then army "books".

Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 20, 2011, 02:16:09 PM
I figure that all the core rules should be in one volume. Then the question is what else to put with them. There are optional, suggested and experimental rules; scenarios; and army lists. Scenarios we could go nuts with but none of the other things, individually, could make up a stand-alone volume.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 20, 2011, 02:50:10 PM
Going by Planetstorm, the rules are about 40 pages and each army description averages about 30 pages.  There were about 3 dozen published scenarios at one or two pages each.

All told, there was less than 350 pages of LOS stuff published but eliminating redundancies and such would mean a compendium of closer to 300 pages. But tyat would be it: one book with everything in it. If it is broken up, what is a digestible size: 64, 96, 128 pages?  How do we break everything up into 3, 4 or 5 books?

30 pages seems a bit small so each army list wouldn't get its own book. And it strikes me as annoying to break up the UNE and Machine armies into multiple publications.

So what you are looking at would be a rule book that includes the UNE and Machine armies. Then a new Alien Sourcebook and finally an advanced rules. Each pub would be about 128 pages.

I'm not familiar with POD technology but I assume that one is not stuck with 16 page signatures but force of habit has me talking as if you do.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: grendeljd on April 20, 2011, 03:14:30 PM
Going off my Defiance experience [POD books] I think the 16 page block rule still stands. The core rulebook I did was 256 pages, and the supplement I am currently finishing up is 64 pages. Makes sense if you are still making printed copies...

I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to do 32 page Army List supplements, they would be super cheap as downloads which would be really appealing... not sure if it would translate to cheaper POD printed copies though [isn't the general rule of thumb being that more pages equals a cheaper per page rate?]. I haven't really looked at many games available on RPGNow and the like - anyone here familiar with common supplement sizes online these days?

I wouldn't think of separating UNE & Machine stats into separate army books either... in fact I'd even hesitate to separate them from the core rule book, unless you just include basic figures in the main rulebook [ala the original black box] and then have UNE & Machine together in one army list edition.

Personally, I'd buy a separate Advanced/Optional rulebook, separate scenario/campaign pack books, and separate army list books too, though I wouldn't be upset about one larger Alien Sourcebook book again either. Is it a concern, in anyone's opinion here, to basically be reprinting updated versions of every main book you already have out from the old run?
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Dave Chase on April 20, 2011, 03:20:08 PM
Well I kind of like how the whole original LOS came out.

Why not release LOS as it's own small book, which covers inside and some of the advance rules.
Release Planetstorm (tabletop) as it's own rules.
In both only cover a limited amount of the other races and just concentrate on UNE and Machines. Have not only mention for the other races and a very brief background but include one squad/unit/etc for each race.

Then have the Alien source book and the AA book (Advance and Alternate rules) and the Scenario book 1 Objective Planetstorm that has scenarios for both table top and undergroud.
Include the basic campaign with book
Scenario book 2 Junction Point
Scenario book 3 Border wars, which would have some scenarios that involve all the different races fighting over objects and resources that most times does not include the machines
Scenario book 4 Machine Madness, a scenario book that involves machines and your choice army/race.

Design both LOS and Planetstorm books so that they could be placed into a binder in the appropriate sections. And please include some color or icon/symbol on each page so that it is easy to tell if it is a LOS or Planetstorm section/rule.
There should also be a pre-intergrated section in the LOS for the Advance rules so that future advance rules (equipment, weapons, special figures) will fit in that binder space.
And the Planetstorm book should have the alternate rules section already built into it for the same reason.

How I see the design/editing of this project of books going is like this:
Since the final design is so that IF one wishes that they could have one big book, layout all the material as one big book.
Then divide the sections into the various release books.
Once it has determine that each book has the correct material and rules included, add the needed
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 20, 2011, 03:27:42 PM
The original Scenario Pack was a stop-gap between the Black Box and the Advanced Rules. Similarly, Junction Point was put out as a lead up to Planetstorm.

The problem with more, smaller books is the cover. First is needing new cover art and the cost involved (a grand per pop?). On the print end, full colour on card stock plus the binding is one price and then b/w pages are about the same regardless if there is 32 or 256 of them. As a package, the cost per page drops as the book gets larger because the cost of the cover is divided over more pages.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: grendeljd on April 20, 2011, 03:46:43 PM
Well I kind of like how the whole original LOS came out.

Agreed! I keep all my LoS books together and love looking through them all, even though I am not playing so often lately.

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Why not release LOS as it's own small book, which covers inside and some of the advance rules.
Release Planetstorm (tabletop) as it's own rules.
In both only cover a limited amount of the other races and just concentrate on UNE and Machines. Have not only mention for the other races and a very brief background but include one squad/unit/etc for each race.

I'd be wary of too much overlap, especially if it ends up being designed to work as sheets in a binder for those who like it. Yes, you could just remove sheets that are duplicated, but wouldn't that be kind of aggravating to have to do?

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Then have the Alien source book and the AA book (Advance and Alternate rules) and the Scenario book 1 Objective Planetstorm that has scenarios for both table top and undergroud.
Include the basic campaign with book
Scenario book 2 Junction Point
Scenario book 3 Border wars, which would have some scenarios that involve all the different races fighting over objects and resources that most times does not include the machines
Scenario book 4 Machine Madness, a scenario book that involves machines and your choice army/race.

Some good ideas here - I like the concept of a scenario book that doesn't involve machines, only inter-alien conflict. Mixing Planetstorm/Tile games in one may be cool too.

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Design both LOS and Planetstorm books so that they could be placed into a binder in the appropriate sections.

My gut reaction to 'designing for binder placement' is that it comes across as being cheap. But I am guessing there are tons of gamers out there who would love the idea. I think trying to design it so you can mix Planetstorm rules in with the Tile version in that format is overdoing it. I'd at least keep the two separated. Designing the layout to accommodate 3-ring press wouldn't be hard, just work it into the inner margin size.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Kindred on April 20, 2011, 04:43:14 PM
actually... I had to slice the spine on a few of the books in order to get them to be usable in a binder...
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Dave Chase on April 20, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
Well, making a binder version of all the rules is just one option.

How exspensive the books cost depends on many factors. Is this going to be a printed rules set only or are individuals going to be able to buy as pdf?

I see the LOS rules as being a subset of the entire LOS/Planetstorm rules. Ie, underground and indoors. The Planetstorm rule set is designed to allow free form tabletop, rigid map tiles and vehicles.

(Kind of like MageKnight game, Table top, Conquest (large armies) and Dungeons (indoor set maps.)

As for redunancy in books, that should be kept a min other than some over lap on other races (non UNE/Machines).

There will be some individuals who might want to check out LOS but not want a full rule set (and the larger price?) so they could buy the LOS indoor rule set.
Some will want table top only and some will buy the Alien books just for the extra background of cool looking, interestingly different races to use in their own game/world.

And of course for a limited edition run, there will be X copies of a hard bound complete rule set available for purchase just in time for Christmas 2012.
Why that long, to see if the demand is high enough to make it worth while to do such. :)

Dave Chase
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: grendeljd on April 21, 2011, 07:55:49 AM
How exspensive the books cost depends on many factors. Is this going to be a printed rules set only or are individuals going to be able to buy as pdf?

This is a must in the modern era of gaming, I think. There has to be a plan in place to sell downloadable versions of everything.

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I see the LOS rules as being a subset of the entire LOS/Planetstorm rules. Ie, underground and indoors. The Planetstorm rule set is designed to allow free form tabletop, rigid map tiles and vehicles.

When Planetstorm first came out, I drooled over the idea of creating a multi-platform campaign - starting out with an above ground series of battles that would lead to an indoor campaign. THAT would be a great scenario book concept...

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There will be some individuals who might want to check out LOS but not want a full rule set (and the larger price?) so they could buy the LOS indoor rule set.
Some will want table top only and some will buy the Alien books just for the extra background of cool looking, interestingly different races to use in their own game/world.

Yeah, thats why I think everything should still be modular and separate - your post earlier sounded slightly confusing over the idea of putting everything together in one binder. Making that an option by designing the layouts isn't a bad idea, but don't most fellows into "binder-izing" just hack their books up anyway? [I don't know personally, just going by Kindred's post above].
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 21, 2011, 08:57:11 AM
I think it was mentioned, but let me second the idea that a bunch of scenarios for alien vs alien would be very valuable...
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: SgtHulka on April 21, 2011, 12:26:27 PM
I think it was mentioned, but let me second the idea that a bunch of scenarios for alien vs alien would be very valuable...

Especially Fantasian versus UNE =). We played a ton of that with Planetstorm.

I'd also like to see more scenarios that aren't just guys attacking machine complexes. There are a few scattered throughout the scenarios that take place in warehouses and stuff, still using the tiles, and I'd like to see more of those, especially machine counter-offensives blasting through League of Alien bases or starships. I don't like machines being on the defensive so much, especially since the fluff talks about how they kicked everyone's butt. And I'd like to see scenarios set during Volgagrad! (is that what it was called?)

Okay, that all said, the scenarios for the original game were all awesome. If you guys didn't spend a ton of time playtesting it sure *seemed* like you did. So what I *don't* want is new scenarios that aren't as awesome as the old ones, i.e. if you don't have time to properly playtest them and give them the attention that the old scenarios were given, I'd rather just see re-prints of the old scenarios.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 27, 2011, 05:57:31 PM
For each scenario we have "Designer Forces" but maybe we should also have some commentary for each about "alternate timelines" where the same forces didn't clash.  So instead of UNE attacking the Machine base, then invent a paragraph of fluff so that the Aliens could be involved, or fighting each other.

Some scenarios rely on movement more than others and that has to be reflected in the force selection.  I was working on a fix to the UPV system that could plug that but it is nowhere near being useful yet.
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 28, 2011, 07:40:23 AM
In scenarios as tight as LoS some might be unsuitable for certain PBA regardless of the usual UPV of those units. Perhaps commentary outlining what could be fielded?
Title: Re: Rule Formatting
Post by: Clark on April 29, 2011, 09:38:24 PM
I agree.  The key thing is the augmented and other sprint-capable figs that can bugger up certain scenarios.  That is why I was working on a new UPV system that takes movement rates into account, given the scenario.  Figures would have a standard UPV plus an "M" factor.  Some scenarios would have an "M" factor.  You multiply the two together and add it to the UPV of the force.