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Author Topic: LOS D6 Limitations  (Read 3170 times)

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Offline bobloblah

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Re: LOS D6 Limitations
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2013, 06:33:51 PM »
I'd argue that GW is a business model that happens to have a game attached to it, increasingly to the game's detriment. I believe it's possible to do the reverse, but that's nothing more than gut feeling and barely informed speculation, and even then I can't think of a scenario where that could realistically sustain a minis game like LoS as anything more than a long tail business.
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Offline Clark

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Re: LOS D6 Limitations
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 09:56:36 AM »
@Clark; the buff/pips require no tracking?

Numbers are no trouble, but tracking modifiers from turn to turn becomes exponentially more difficult as I pass my working memory limit.

For example I can track the nachtmacher counters in play, but add ammo counts and I have two sets to track. Add pips and I have three sets, each different in their organisational hierarchy and system implications. So while the pips are very conceptually elegant they are inelegant in physical play, if they need to be tracked per individual over more than one turn.

Just my thoughts. I'd be super happy to see a jump to D20, nix the "7-8" jiggery pokery, and avoid extra tracking over turns. But if the pips provide bonuses within the turn then that's a different thing and I'd have to think about it. I definitely think the pips would be awesome in a computerised version.

I guess we have to define "tracking".  The whole buff/pip thing is simply an extention on the "graininess" of a D6 system.  Right now it goes like this: I walk my trooper and fire at your Predator at 37".  Medium range with the RAM laser and -1 for the fig's armour is 6+ to kill (setting aside pinning for the moment).  Buffs and pips are just the little things like if my trooper is actually a lance corporal with his crossed rifles patch and the Predator has an ablat/reflec upgrade while kneeling under light brush.  None of these things would amount to a +/-1 modifier (which effectively doubles or halves your kill chance). However, you tally them when you take your shot. A net total of +/-6 pips would mean a +/-1 on the roll, but if the net amounted to, say, 2 pips then one of two things happens.  If you have a net bonus of 2 pips then a near miss becomes a kill if you can roll a second die equal to or under that bonus. If there is a net deficit then on an exact kill your target gets a "save" equal to or less than that deficit.  So in the above example, if there was a net bonus of +2 pips then a 6 would be a kill but on a 5 the shooter gets and extra die and if he can roll a 1 or2 then he still gets the kill. If it was a -2 deficit then on a 6 the target gets to roll and on a 1 or 2 it negates the kill.

Offline Clark

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Re: LOS D6 Limitations
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 10:08:30 AM »
I'd vote for keeping the D6 system unless there is serious commitment to restructuring the whole game. That could be a ton of extra work that would add on to the timeline for relaunching this baby.

Otherwise, I tend to think it only needs a mild shift in die scale. I'd be happier with a simple step up to D8 or D10, primarily to eliminate the currently existing pesky extra D6 rolls required to reach a target number of 7 or 8, and give a little more Target # range to the existing weapons.

The clunkiness of the D6 system is what makes Legions of Steel (the indoor game) more chess than checkers or crazy 8s.  Every decision you make - walk, run, remain stationary, cover, etc - has some pretty substantial consequences. One point on the D6 effectively halves or doubles your firepower, so it is all about positioning, tactics and such.  If you have two top-notch players, it will usually come down to an initiative roll.  However, if you have someone with skills against a noob, the latter simply can't get THAT lucky to make up for the errors he will make in movement, positioning, fire and such.

Offline Clark

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Re: LOS D6 Limitations
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 10:29:41 AM »
Yeah the blistering fast and bloody play of LOS was a big draw for me. I'd not want to slow it. There's a lot of internet fandom and chatter focusing on very fast-playing rules; see Song of Blades and Heroes, or the dozen variants of FUBAR. Whether this translates into retail success I have no clue.

My thought is that it was often said, back in th' day,  LOS had a problem with scale; you couldn't go up much from a fiend without things breaking.

So I wonder if, with a bigger die, you might be able to expand the range of figures that can feasibly be played. Thus easing the transition from straight LOS to tabletop skirmish with regular infantry and vehicles? Deadzone doesn't try to get above the size of LOS heavy powered infantry and light vehicles. Theoretically it's a taster for a later, full-sized skirmish game, and they're using the Deadzone KS to stir up some chatter and get people to buy in, and to get their core troops in plastic from the get-go. Nevertheless it might be informative that they started at the 1-2 squads end of the spectrum.

Personally I think (imagine, really, I'm no industry insider) there's a fair market for skirmish sized games. Warmachine, Hordes, Deadzone, etc. So I'd be excited to see LOS much as it was, then a tabletop version for small tables with a lot of terrain; representing urban environments, industrial compounds, and freakin' big underground or shipboard actions. This is more "in range" of original LOS than a "full sized" two platoons and some armour game per modern 40K.

All of which is possibly of interest when deciding how much up-scalablity you want to biuld into the core LOS mechanics. And if you decide you want to be able to scale up, then I would be in favour of keeping the "one roll, one kill" lethality, even honing it a bit, and going with a bigger die.

The first draft of LOS used a two-roll method (a to-hit roll and a damage roll).  Derrick and Marco and I mulled about it and we decided to go to a single D6 roll. I had to put on my thinking cap to work that out.  There is actually a lot more going on behind the system than what you see.

It is based on a weapon and target "signature" that consists of a to-hit and damage modifier. The base kill number is 6+ and you can get a maximum of +2 for targeting and +2 for damage, which makes your best kill number 2+.  However, the negative numbers add up.  When the numbers go over +2 then there are various fudges like weapons that ignore general modifiers. The other fix is creating target "classes": non-powered infantry, powered infantry, light vehicle, heavy vehicles, and naval class.  It is all based on how the weapon and target signatures interact but it is a fix designed to get around all the complicated mathematics that would ensue.

I have been musing about taking LOS into being an open gaming system.  All of this would be discussed in more detail in a tool box style publication that would allow others to create their own game.