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Author Topic: Battlecards  (Read 5126 times)

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Offline Clark

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Battlecards
« on: April 22, 2011, 07:44:30 AM »
Battlecards?  Ok, I am using what I think is a cool name for a straight forward game mechanic: using a deck of playing cards instead of d6 for certain processes within the games.

As I work on the new BROE I am parsing what should go into the standard and "advanced" LOS and eventually Planetstorm.

There are at least 3 game mechanics that I have identified which, IMO, work better by using cards rather than d6.

First is initiative where you have multiple units and players.  Under the BROE it is simple: roll 1d6 and add leadership, break ties with an additional roll, higher roll has the option to go first or second.  In Planetstorm we used cards: draw one card per unit, draw additional cards for a unit that spends leadership or command and retain the best card, use a pass-or-play sequence from highest to lowest to allow each unit/player the option to act, low man on the totem pole must act if no one else does.  Obviously, the latter is an order of magnitude more complex than the former but that is to be expected if you want to keep the same theory as applied to two units as to 10 units.

I found that it always worked well.  It slowed play a bit but gave it more flavour.  I bought a 1/4 size deck of cards from a dollar store and they work quite well.  You can drop the card in the middle of the unit or stick it in a door base to stand up.

For LOS (as distinct from Planetstorm) there are a number of other game mechanics that could be imported and used with cards like the decimation rules.  The experience/hero/leadership/command rules for campaigns needs to be looked at since it does not seem to produce results typical of the armies involved, and maybe using cards rather than 1d6 or 2d6 could work better.

If we look at Planetstorm, the first thing that comes to my mind is the Killl-Pin-Wound draft rules (posted in the media section).  One commenter described this as brilliant but unworkable because it slowed gameplay too much.  Read the draft and comment because it is too complex to immediatly discuss here.

Next is the morale rules. Under the original Planetstorm rules morale checks were on a 3d6 bell curve.  As we worked more with this it all seemed to be a waste of time because most units were so hard to break.  So what I was thinking of was to keep the basic conception but make morale checks a card draw which transforms the curve from 3d6/3-18 bell curve to a straight 1-13 draw.  That makes breaking and rallying at the margins more likely.

Having said that, I prefer cards to goofy dice like d12, d20 etc etc for a few reasons.

First is that you can pick up a deck of cards for one or two bucks, if you don't already have one.

Second is that you can let the result lay, whereas you can't do that with dice unless you have lots of them.

Third is that cards can generate many wonderful, random patterns since they are essentially a d4/d13/d52 system with cross-referenced results.

So the bottom line is that my view is that the standard system should incorporate cards and card draws.




Offline SgtHulka

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 09:37:02 AM »
I would strongly advise you to avoid cards. I have been shocked by the vitriole many TMP'ers have against cards.

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2011, 07:01:09 PM »
It is easier to cheat using a deck of cards than it is with dice.

Other than that, I have seen games use them before and the only comment that sticks in my mind is not from the gamers that play the game but the passerby who sees a cheesy (cheap) game that can not even afford to make their own deck or dice.

Again, not trying to be the negative here but, what is your goal with the overal game?
Make happy those who want the game and all ready know about it
Get the game out the way you want it since it has been a few years since last published
Draw in new players and followers
etc

Now listing that a deck of cards as an option is fine, but please (IMO) don't make it a standard.

Dave Chase
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Offline Kindred

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2011, 08:29:04 PM »
Although I like how Malifeaux uses cards, I would be hesitant to use them... For one, it does not fit the genre. That is a minor concern, in the scheme of things, but is one.


Offline grendeljd

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2011, 10:19:24 AM »
Having said that, I prefer cards to goofy dice like d12, d20 etc etc for a few reasons.

First is that you can pick up a deck of cards for one or two bucks, if you don't already have one.

Second is that you can let the result lay, whereas you can't do that with dice unless you have lots of them.

Third is that cards can generate many wonderful, random patterns since they are essentially a d4/d13/d52 system with cross-referenced results.

So the bottom line is that my view is that the standard system should incorporate cards and card draws.

My personal opinion only, but I don't care for using playing cards for anything in the game, not even initiative as it is in Planetstorm. I'd find it just as easy to roll initiatives on dice in Planetstorm and write each result one down on a master sheet, then cross 'em off as each squad moves & fires. Sgnt_Hastp & I used to do that for the indoor version anyway once we started using higher upv's & multiple squads for the scenario's.

I agree with Dave Chase, I think cards make the game look cheaper. Yes, a deck of cards is cheap and easy to pick up, but what gamer interested in LoS wouldn't already have a ton of dice? I don't game much these days [RPG or mini's - lack of time rather than interest] , but I've still got a massive stash of dice to pull out for whatever happens along.

Even if you are trying to target people new to gaming that may not own any supplies, they are likely to get it in a shop where dice are readily available too. If a newbie buys the new LoS3e online, he/she can probably easily order some dice online too... I'm only thinking it doesn't really impact getting into the game if one has to buy dice OR playing cards...

"Battlecards"? Actually a cool idea if you make a card set of your own design specifically for LoS that come with the game...
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Offline sgibson260

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2011, 10:29:39 AM »
I think in LOS and Planetstorm, you already have counter overload on the board, which can cause you to lose that suspension of disbelief.  Adding little cards would be even more distractions form the cool terrain and figs.

In the GenCon game last year, we had one side rolling for reinforcements.  One guy could not roll higher than a 4 on a D20, whihc resulted in not enough reinforcements to stop the attackers.  So I said "Roll a D10 and add 10!"  So what did he roll?  11, 13, 12, 11, 14!  Aaargh!  This of course made a balanced scenario into a blowout for the Imperial player.

This year, for reinforcements, I will use a deck of cards to maintain an even balance.

Hope that heps,
Steve

Offline sergeant_hastp

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 04:58:33 AM »
I think in LOS and Planetstorm, you already have counter overload on the board, which can cause you to lose that suspension of disbelief.  Adding little cards would be even more distractions form the cool terrain and figs.

In the GenCon game last year, we had one side rolling for reinforcements.  One guy could not roll higher than a 4 on a D20, whihc resulted in not enough reinforcements to stop the attackers.  So I said "Roll a D10 and add 10!"  So what did he roll?  11, 13, 12, 11, 14!  Aaargh!  This of course made a balanced scenario into a blowout for the Imperial player.

This year, for reinforcements, I will use a deck of cards to maintain an even balance.

Hope that heps,
Steve

With all respect Steve, that sounds like a scenario design problem.  Why not go with a cumulative +1 to the roll each turn/round, or go with a multiple dice roll mechanic, like roll 3D6  for reinforcments.  A lot better chances to roll middle of the road numbers. 


Anyways...to the discussion at hand; for me, this would not sway my mind to picking cards over dice.

However...I have used cards for initiative in games and didn't mind doing so.

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 08:36:10 AM »
I quite like cards and know of a couple of games that use them. However many people hate them. One problem is that for a game with 8-10 cards they don't shuffle very well. Another problem is people will cheat with them, it's much harder to fake a dice roll in plain sight.

Offline Clark

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011, 08:43:43 PM »
So to summarize:

1) Miniature games use dice as the standard, playing cards don't fit most people's conception of how to do things in miniature games

2) The exception is to use a proprietary deck that is custom made for that specific game (like Mallifaux, and don't 40k psycher rules use cards?)

3) Cards cause more board clutter

4) It is easier to cheat with cards rather than dice

I can't really comment on 1) because LOS is basically the only miniature game I've ever played

2) This creates the same "dead tree" problem as the templates and counters in terms of printing and distribution.

3) For initiative, it's a relatively simple matter to keep the cards off the board or otherwise keep track of the initiative the same way you would if you are rolling dice. Using cards has two advantages: a) you never have to worry about breaking a tie and b) you can have hidden initiative.

This opens up another discussion in terms of bookkeeping vs using counters. A unit control sheet could theoretically keep track of everything but you wouod have to look at the other guy's sheet to know if any particular fig was covering -1, kneeling, suppressing or whatever.

4) Is this really a concern?  And if it is, is it actually easier to cheat if you are drawing the top card off of a deck sitting on the table?


Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 10:54:15 PM »
So to summarize:
...

4) Is this really a concern?  And if it is, is it actually easier to cheat if you are drawing the top card off of a deck sitting on the table?
Sorry for such a short reply and only answering one part, it just been a long day of politics (Actual true politics as in political not the RL crap of everyday)

Yes, cheating is a concern for most players. I have seen many an individual get turned off of a game because of ease of cheating by another player.

It's not the top card cheating, its the shuffling cheating.

Dave Chase
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Offline SgtHulka

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2011, 12:29:27 AM »
So to summarize:

1) Miniature games use dice as the standard, playing cards don't fit most people's conception of how to do things in miniature games

Apparently so. There are a number of games I find interesting that use cards: Planetstorm, The Rules with No Name/Street Violence, Alzo Zero/Operation World War II. The latter two have gotten slammed on TMP for being card driven, and Alzo Zero/Operation World War II even have cool custom-made cards.

2) The exception is to use a proprietary deck that is custom made for that specific game (like Mallifaux, and don't 40k psycher rules use cards?)

I'm not so sure. See Alzo Zero comment, above.

3) Cards cause more board clutter

3) For initiative, it's a relatively simple matter to keep the cards off the board or otherwise keep track of the initiative the same way you would if you are rolling dice.

Not really. Unless you're playing at a store/convention/club with massive table space, a miniatures wargame uses the entire table as a play surface. There isn't much space for off-board stuff. That's one of the advantages of Planetstorm not requiring any record keeping. Personally, we bought these tiny decks of cards for use with Planetstorm that I still have stored in my Legions of Steel black box, so for me it was no big deal. Also, I liked having the cards around because they gave me an instant 90 degree angle to check fire arcs with. But miniatures enthusiasts aren't necessarily a rational group.

This opens up another discussion in terms of bookkeeping vs using counters. A unit control sheet could theoretically keep track of everything but you wouod have to look at the other guy's sheet to know if any particular fig was covering -1, kneeling, suppressing or whatever.

A lack of record keeping is one of the best things about Legions of Steel. Please don't ditch the counters. The counters are small and pretty attractive as-is. And you can order custom-made ones now from Litko if you want something even nicer.

4) Is this really a concern?  And if it is, is it actually easier to cheat if you are drawing the top card off of a deck sitting on the table?

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 06:14:12 AM »
I feel compelled to say that TMP is probably not representative of gamers, especially gamers under 30. They hate 40K, WarMachine, Anime, Manga, and miniatures made after 1980, anything non-historical, anything historical that isn't historical ENOUGH, anything with points values, most sci-fi and most fantasy....


Offline SgtHulka

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011, 09:02:33 AM »
I feel compelled to say that TMP is probably not representative of gamers, especially gamers under 30. They hate 40K, WarMachine, Anime, Manga, and miniatures made after 1980, anything non-historical, anything historical that isn't historical ENOUGH, anything with points values, most sci-fi and most fantasy....

LOL, well-characterized!

But for niche products, like Legions of Steel, they're kind of the only game in town. If LoS doesn't get talked about on the TMP forums, where will it get talked about? Maybe boardgame geek, which is already pre-disposed to like LoS.

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2011, 10:50:04 AM »
There's Tabletop Gaming News, but yeah, TMP is largely "it". It's very useful to get noticed there. I don't hate the place by any means, I'm a regular visitor; but the comments section doesn't necessarily reflect gamers in general.

Boardgame Geek is a very good point, actually. Clark should definitely woo them a little...

Offline Clark

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Re: Battlecards
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2011, 02:33:02 PM »
Litko custom counters

http://www.litkoaero.com/products/Personalized-Game-Tokens-%28Basic-Shapes%2C-set-of-10%29.html

A bit pricey and only one-sided but that could be a stop gap until the counters get back into print.

I've seen TMP and BGG and posted a few times in each but otherwise haven't been trying to generate a buzz on there.