Base Size and LoS

[Scoutzout]

Has any thought been given to base size or size in general for the upcoming version of  LoS and Planetstorm?

Do the Fiends, Behemoths etc have the same footprint as Scout UNE or a War Leader. Does a Tozai Drakkar crawl on his hands and knees? A Stalker could perhaps slink its way through the 1 square wide corridors, but a BAP?

It seems a shame to pay close attention to range, diagonal movement and other measurement-based elements I have seen posted without including some reference or impact based upon size.

How do these two kill creatures maneuver the twisting labyrinths?

How do the grenades AoE seem to be less effective against these larger targets?

Thoughts?

[Clark]

The ground scale is 1" to 2m but the figure scale is closer to 1-1/2" to 2m. Based on the size of the figures, as sculpted, it would be a tight fit for a Mk I or Behemoth - but doable - while the Mk III and BAPs would probably not fit.

Not sure what to do about that.

AOE weapons gave the same effect as other weapons because the general modifier is a combination of both size and armour.

[SgtHulka]

The sculptors did a *pretty* remarkable job at managing to balance the figures in such a way that they actually stand on the 1" bases, but some of them are pretty fiddly/easy to knock over (I'm looking at you Mark III). In Planetstorm that can be an issue when placing figures on slopes.

The trouble is that most of the maps are 1" corridors so if you start increasing the size of the bases the tiles would have to change.

[Dave Chase]

Base size is not always a correct way to determine figure size even if all figures are the same scale.

Depending on the shape/stance of the figure, large figures might not need a large base if they are balanced where I have seen smaller figures that were on a standard trooper base fall over all the time due to the stance (centuars in MageKnight early on).

Some figures are so large that if they can fit down a corridor that 2 normal figures should be able to walk side by side down that same corridor.

Others are just long in body but narrow in width.

Take the Stalker figure, It should easily fit down any corridor that a human can but it should also take up to squares of space front to back.

If the Fiend can fit down Machine corridors then

Gremlins and runways can fit 2 per square because of their small size.

OK, to answer your question now.

No matter what the actual base size of the figure, there needs to be min square (or area of control in Planetstorm) for each figure.

1/2 square - Gremlins, runaways
1 square - PI, normal troops, machines, etc (or say that if the min is not listed in a figure's discription, it is considered a 1 sq AoC) and IMO, fiends should be 1 square)
2 squares - stalker *(special front to back), BAP, Centurion, superfortress, Raptor *(front to back), are 2 squares side by side. meaning that if a corridor is not 2 squares wide then the figure can not walk down the corridor normally. They can fit sideways at double cost of normal movement.

Vehicles and the larger figures, I do not have in front of me, so that I can not list them. Even though they are normally only used in Planetstorm, a number of squares needs to be listed for each.

Here is how I see AoC working in both LOS and Planetstorm.
Area of Control means that if any opposing figure attempts to pass you or comes with in the figures AoC that HtH engagement happens. (Unless the figure is incapacitated).
With squares and LOS rules not much needs to be said about this as it is very obvious to most that this possibility happens.

On the table top though the number of squares equals the number of inches of AoC. So the Stalker and Raptor have 2 inches to their front (back) that they can engage and the typical 1 inch beyond their base to the side.

Other 2 square figures have 2 inches to their side and 1 inch to their front for AoC.

The bigger figures of course have a much larger AoC.
Vehicles do not gain this AoC unless they are the articulate ones.

Just some thoughts on your question.

Dave Chase
EDIT
Well, you two posted before I finished writing my post.

END EDIT

[Clark]

Dave Summers had a habit of making figs a bit too chunky.  So the Ironsides Assault Troopers are about the same size as the Behemoth.  The BAP ended up huge, and the driver for the Black Empire Chariot was more like 1/32nd scale.

I figure we use an AoC like Dave is suggesting or a good ol' ZOC like in the old Avalon Hill games, and then hand wave the physical impossibility of a BAP and a Mk III chasing each other through a bunch of 1" wide corridors.

The 1" base size simply made for a consistency of where you were shooting from and to.  For Planetstorm it might be an idea to set different base sizes and then calculate ranges and LOF from edge of base to edge of base rather than from centre to centre.

The whole question only came up in passing when we did a 3D map board for GenCon 95 and realized that if we actually had the walls there, we needed to go with the proper ground scale.  Of course, for general use the tension was between going with proper 1/72 scale figures (which would be rather small looking by our judgment) or using 1/48 ground scale which requires too big a table if you want to trade long range fire (actually,because we use a bastardized inches to metres conversion it is actually 1/79th or 1/53rd).

[smokingwreckage]

I'd just make the grid squares bigger, note it for people who care about the actual ground scale - almost nobody - and go from there. There's no need for the grid-based game to translate exactly to the inches based game, and if it does then one grid square can equal whatever you like as long as the conversion is consistent.

[grendeljd]

In the scenario I wrote up for fun specifically to put an Arch-Fiend in the tunnels  I thought it made sense that the fiend took up 4 squares based on the staggered placement of its feet. I also thought it appropriate to not allow a figure to stand in a square covered by its tail either...

I like the idea presented of AoC for Planetstorm, but I think it would be a shame to see some figures get a 2 square base size in the indoor version, only due to the movement restrictions this would impose. I like the idea though - I do think some figures could be considered 2 square figs [BAP, Stalker, MKIII]. Maybe if more tiles consisting of two square wide tunnels were designed, this restriction could be alright if used?

[smokingwreckage]

I'm a bit leery of messing with the squares-occupied aspect of the rules. It seems complicating.

[Dave Chase]

I'm a bit leery of messing with the squares-occupied aspect of the rules. It seems complicating.

It's not that bad. Look at MageKnight: Dungeons some time. It is very easy if diagramed and kept simple in explaination.

Dave Chase

[Clark]

The main reason I cling to having 1" bases is because there aee thousands of LOS templates out there and we still have the dies to cut more. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the templates give players a common framework for creating and playing scenarios and I think that is important to hold the system together.

[smokingwreckage]

Oh, you still have the dies? Stick with the current system then, IMO. No-one else AFAIK is producing sweet interlocking tiles like that.

[Clark]

That again is a function of getting money together for an inventory float to run a thousand of each board, cut and wrap them, and then store them somewhere.

As far as I know, Marco still has the dies.

I'm rather proud of how they turned out, from a functional standpoint.  There were always quality control problems with our registration tolerance because we could only afford about 1/16".  The counters were worse because of the double-sided printing and pasting, plus the cutting.

I had an idea for a strategic starship battle game that would require hexagons, rather than squares, using the same sort of idea.