Author Topic: Rule Formatting  (Read 8920 times)

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Arfiel

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2011, 09:26:43 AM »
I have to agree with sergeant_hastp.
A real story line with direct rules would be great, and clear for younger players.

Offline Clark

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2011, 05:17:34 PM »
How about using a numbering system but you make it look like it is a secondary consideration:

KILL NUMBERS [LOS ROE Section 4.3]

Rather than

4.3 KILL NUMBERS

I find Dave's argument somewhat compelling: for no other reason, a numbering system gives a professional military feel to the whole experience.

If I thought that we were going to engage in a great bout of rule bloat then it would be decisive because as both Kindred and I have observed, that is the way complex rule systems (legal or technical) organize themselves.

So maybe we put it as an aside with a numbered index for those that appreciate it.

---

Maybe we have a new genre of fiction here: explanatory or elaborative fiction. 

The twin-column narrative/explanation model with a briefing and debriefing could be something unique to LOS if it was developed.

Arfiel

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2011, 05:49:19 PM »
I have to say that when I heard the twin column narrative/explanation I thought I could see Sergeant_hastp doing something like that. I hate to throw his hat in the ring but if you ask nicely I am sure he would throw together some good examples.

Offline Clark

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2011, 05:56:54 PM »
Seargen_hasp

It seems you have been "voluntold".

Arfiel

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2011, 11:47:22 PM »
HAHA ... I wouldn't go that far.
It is that after I read the description of what you wanted to do I couldn't help thinking about the house rules and games that Sergeant_hastp wrote for our games and couldn't help but think how his style regarding rules explanation and narrative would suit this style well.

See now you made go make a post like this and his ego is going to get all inflated. damn !

Offline bobloblah

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2011, 12:01:22 AM »
I don't think the decimal system is so fantastic nowadays. I tend to view it as a holdover from older games, and as something that no major game is really using now. Having said that, I think it can still be there, it just can't be the focus. What I mean by that is that:
  • You can preceed rules with a decimal, but good graphic design needs to make the rule title the focus, not the decimal, and...
  • Adding a decimal to every paragraph and/or sub-portion of a rule is not a good thing; other major games are not doing this these days, and LoS does not need to read like a legal textbook. Besides, breaking up the rule text that much is distracting.
I do not think that ditching the decimal system will harm Legions of Steel or Planetstorm at all. But then, I also think one should run screaming from anything that would get LoS compared to ASL. Way more important is a good index. Lack of one is something that a lot of games get trashed for. Don't make LoS one of those  games. A Glossary is also a very good idea. Which reminds me, I need to ask Kindred about templates so I can include a glossary in the wiki.

On the question of examples, I think that examples are crucial. I'm not so sure simple italic text is the best, however. I think it works fine for short, to-the-point examples embedded in the rule text, but I think more involved or lengthy examples are better dealt with in sidebars, graphically set apart and clearly labeled as such. Ultimately, if the graphic resources are available, the second option is almost always better.

Would it be helpful if I posted example images of this stuff from other rulebooks, or do you have access to some other modern rulebooks?
Best Regards,
Bobloblah

Offline Clark

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2011, 09:58:13 PM »
Admittedly, I have not been doing a lot of gaming for the past several years and not in any state-of-the-art gaming systems.  I have read GURPS and D&D 4e.  The latter I found interesting but I am not sure if we can take much from it.

It has exposition in normal text and then shaded boxes that usually have bullet points to state the rules.  Most examples are graphic, with a 1/4 page illustration while non-visual examples that involve, say, arithmetic simply go Example: Dorwin the Ranger calculates his AC by. . .

Offline Clark

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2011, 11:33:54 PM »
Here is a simple but manpower intensive fix, given that I have no intention of killing trees personally and selling the books:

1) The book is released online as a PDF
2) We find a POD option for those who want it professionally perfect bound.
3) A modified rule set is put out (I don't know if "released" or "published" are the right words) that alpha-numbers the rules

The latter can be done internally for revision purposes, and those who find it easier to print the update, 3-hole punch it, replace and insert, then they can keep a current rulebook.

It would be more work initially for me but if things change it is a lot easier to keep track of it.

Having said that, I would like 3e to stand alone as a complete system with few tweaks to be expected or necessary.

TypoPlanetstorm is another story, expecially to follow up with Stormfront (as it was) which adds the rock-paper-scissor element of non-powered infantry and (light) vehicles.

Offline Clark

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 11:45:25 PM »
Setting aside the numbering issues, how modular or "chunky" should the organization be.

My present vision is to re-release the basic Rules of Engagement, the 3e Compendium, with the Rules Matrix being integral to allow players to customize their gaming experience.

What I take from some comments is that the compendium would not be ideal and that various game mechanics should be broken up in to separate publications so that the prospect of printing and reading 300 pages is removed and players can absorb 64 page chunks (or some othe rnumber) on a pick-and-choose basis.

As with the rule numbering system discussed, all of these options can be accomodated, but the question is at what manpower cost?

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2011, 01:12:37 AM »
NB: I argue my case based on limited experience. little care is taken, and no responsibility is accepted. If affected, avoid alcohol and do not operate heavy machinery.

I think there's two advantages to modular release: one, people often don't like big books. Two: while you have all or most rules prepped for "internal" release, possibly using a collaborative online platform of some sort, you only have to have them fully formatted, decoratively embroidered, and covered in little stick-on sequins one release at a time. Oh, the third advantage: you can price the rulebook PDF under some psychological price-point yet to be determined, but still get a reasonable total revenue from folks who want "the lot" with bacon.

The other advantage is that you get a rep for "ongoing support". This usually means "I saw another headline on TMP", at least on TMP. By spreading out the releases you give people more time to trip over one of your presumably gorgeous covers and feel compelled to buy it, you possibly get repeat reviews from review sites (another almost-free advertising service).

I don't know how easy it is to set-up, but I can offer some proof-reading, spell-checking and editing.

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2011, 01:16:53 AM »
That numbering system makes me think of a wiki, or a document generated from a database. Uh, I have nothing concrete to offer in either case.

Offline grendeljd

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2011, 09:19:45 AM »
I tend to agree with SW - modular releases may be the better route here, only in the interest of not having a single mega sized volume with a high price tag... the 'Defiance' book I did for MJ12 games has this issue. I have heard the odd complaint about it being too big to digest.

It makes for a great and simple marketing/advertising plan to have multiple releases springing up in the news, provided you don't turn people off by appearing to milk the system with too many.

The problem I see is how to divvy up LoS if you go that route... Back in the day, our gaming group found the Junction Point book to be a great 'go-to' source for all the up to date army stats in one place, and it was the most commonly used during games. We of course had to refer to the various supplements for rules clarifications in-game as well... but with a re-release, would you want to repeat the past and have a basic rules, advanced rules, & alien sourcebook all over again? Maybe - I think a smaller core rulebook with UNE & Machine stats as well as a few starter scenarios would be good. Advanced/optional rules as a stand alone without any army stats but a few more scenarios would probably work.

Alien sourcebook? What about the idea of a single smaller supplement book for each army? Is there enough material per race to do that? I would hate to have it compared to GW in any way, but if the price point is right for a download/print-on-demand copy, I think it could do very well. It seems to be a common tactic across the board anyway [that AT-43 game did it very well and for a decent price too]

Then each race could have a little more attention devoted to their background, have more art devoted to them [I'd be up for that] and all the current fig's stated up in in one spot. Bringing a print-off stat sheet from the supplement to a game would be as easy this way as it was to carry Junction Point around in the past.

And you could do mini-scenario/campaign packs with a few background updates 'till the cows come home...
I hate people generally, but I like them specifically - John Malkovich

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2011, 10:09:39 AM »
My guess would be: basic rules first up with the basic LoS and UNE figures. Knowing all the weapons rules is a big deal with this game so I'd limit it to stuff that sticks with the common rules. My starting-point is the Black Box as I never saw the Blue Box, but for a download you don't want to be that sparse. Hint at the more expansive UNE and LOS lists, add some stuff that spices the game up without adding too many extra rules. Yes, all subjective points I know. (Ideally you wouldn't overwhelm anyone, wouldn't disappoint anyone, and would leave everyone looking for more. Never going to happen. Just the ideal.)

Then I would imagine, Advanced. Advanced and optional rules. This should basically be a bit of a rules-junkies' paradise with lots of options and tweaks, and guidelines for introducing rules (including "by mutual consent only" for the far-out or very detailed stuff).

Lots of possibilities here, one of which is to bring in all or some UNE and LOS (depending on the next step, see below) and IMO, the basic squad for each of the Alien empires, with a very short blurb on who they are and what they do. This would be good if the aliens weren't back in production yet but/and you could get their basic troopers out soon. Possibly keep the Angel, T85, ASP and maybe Mk3 for the full army lists. The Angel was part of the backbone BE boxed set, but I think she might make the BE "book" a let-down?

Then, IF you go with downloads, you do pretty and complete army lists one at a time for the "Aliens" AND for each of the UNE and LoS. The trick is to take full advantage of the format and make something very nice, and very cheap. Maybe the LOS and UNE should be half price, since your customer has already paid for them in part. The UNE and LoS would of course be complete, including all earlier stuff for those armies.

I think people will feel they're getting value as long as each chunk is cheap enough and gives them stunning new art to ogle, and of course new tactics to cause their opponents some grief.

In summary: rules, then optional rules, then army "books".


Offline Clark

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2011, 02:16:09 PM »
I figure that all the core rules should be in one volume. Then the question is what else to put with them. There are optional, suggested and experimental rules; scenarios; and army lists. Scenarios we could go nuts with but none of the other things, individually, could make up a stand-alone volume.

Offline Clark

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Re: Rule Formatting
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2011, 02:50:10 PM »
Going by Planetstorm, the rules are about 40 pages and each army description averages about 30 pages.  There were about 3 dozen published scenarios at one or two pages each.

All told, there was less than 350 pages of LOS stuff published but eliminating redundancies and such would mean a compendium of closer to 300 pages. But tyat would be it: one book with everything in it. If it is broken up, what is a digestible size: 64, 96, 128 pages?  How do we break everything up into 3, 4 or 5 books?

30 pages seems a bit small so each army list wouldn't get its own book. And it strikes me as annoying to break up the UNE and Machine armies into multiple publications.

So what you are looking at would be a rule book that includes the UNE and Machine armies. Then a new Alien Sourcebook and finally an advanced rules. Each pub would be about 128 pages.

I'm not familiar with POD technology but I assume that one is not stuck with 16 page signatures but force of habit has me talking as if you do.