Legions of Steel Forum

Legions of Steel => General Discussion => Topic started by: Clark on April 05, 2011, 09:11:12 PM

Title: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 05, 2011, 09:11:12 PM
I made an entry into Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_wargaming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_wargaming)

Clark Browning - A sergeant with the Canadian Military Engineers Reserves, he designed the mechanics of Legions of Steel. While not commercially successful, the system is lauded for its tactical options and 'realism', as much as it can be simulated. The fans of the system - who have unofficially converted numerous science fiction properties - are notable for their disproportionate number of active and former military and police.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Nukelavee on April 05, 2011, 09:41:29 PM
No, I think it's a pretty fair entry, and, honestly, people with military backgrounds did praise the system highly.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 05, 2011, 09:44:13 PM
Except for the Yanks and the "must autofire" rule, lol.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Scoutzout on April 05, 2011, 10:12:18 PM
Except for the Yanks and the "must autofire" rule, lol.

I always chuckled at that rule....
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 06, 2011, 07:24:52 AM
Some guys got really upset about it, so here is how I diffused the situation:

"That's pretty insulting.  The US Army has developed excellent fire discipline."
"Well, I was writing about the Marines"
"Oh, ya, I see what you mean."
...
"We have great fire discipline."
"USMC?"
"Yes."
"I was writing about the Army."
"Well, ok then, you are right."
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Scoutzout on April 06, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
..that is the way of fighting without fighting.

Blame another service  ;D
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: grendeljd on April 06, 2011, 08:49:51 PM
While not commercially successful, the system is lauded for its tactical options and 'realism', as much as it can be simulated.

Its a shame to state that about the commercial success. Your company may have folded in the end, but that couldn't have been in large part due to LoS itself... the game always sold well back then, I thought. Hell, I used to work in a couple of comic/gaming shops at the time and didn't have too much trouble moving it.

A funny story related to the American 'autofiring' tangent;

As I have mentioned elsewhere in the forum, I used to play music by Front Line Assembly to set a certain 'mood'. They have a penchant for incorporating quotes from various movies into their tunes.

One night JP was using his American [nicely painted] squads, and at a particular moment when a behemoth was about to unload fully on a few of my nightmares, one of the more infamous quotes came up, perfectly timed - it was from the movie Falling Down; "I'm an American - You're a sick *******". The next second he made his dice role and I think he ended up nicely mowing down nearly all the Nightmares he was targeting.  Talk about my 'psychological warfare' strategy backfiring, LOL!
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Scoutzout on April 06, 2011, 09:20:21 PM
LOL..thats funny!!
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: sergeant_hastp on April 06, 2011, 09:43:47 PM
I remember that moment!

That was a case of perfect situation mixed with perfect timing.  Couldn't have done that INTENTIONALLY if we tried.

That was a squad from the 101st Airborne...Powered Armor company.  The figure was nick-named 'Animal' and he bowled a strike!  :D

Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 06, 2011, 10:50:19 PM
Let's talk music and movie quotes.

http://los.turtleshellprod.com/index.php?topic=89.msg589#msg589 (http://los.turtleshellprod.com/index.php?topic=89.msg589#msg589)
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 08, 2011, 11:37:47 PM
While not commercially successful, the system is lauded for its tactical options and 'realism', as much as it can be simulated.

Its a shame to state that about the commercial success. Your company may have folded in the end, but that couldn't have been in large part due to LoS itself... the game always sold well back then, I thought. Hell, I used to work in a couple of comic/gaming shops at the time and didn't have too much trouble moving it.

I can never thank anyone enough for their support in this.

There were only two things that really bothered me.

1) The Rack Deal experience and why all these retailers who seemed to take the leap of faith didn't/couldn't/wouldn't move the product we gave them on such sweet terms.

2) Enough with the Space Hulk rip-off critiques.  Yes the format is the same but everything else is different.  WH is closer to Chainmail than LOS is to SH.  Hell, 40K is arguably closer to Chainmail.

I was giving a bit of hard facts rather than tooting my own horn there.

Quote
A funny story related to the American 'autofiring' tangent;

As I have mentioned elsewhere in the forum, I used to play music by Front Line Assembly to set a certain 'mood'. They have a penchant for incorporating quotes from various movies into their tunes.

One night JP was using his American [nicely painted] squads, and at a particular moment when a behemoth was about to unload fully on a few of my nightmares, one of the more infamous quotes came up, perfectly timed - it was from the movie Falling Down; "I'm an American - You're a sick *******". The next second he made his dice role and I think he ended up nicely mowing down nearly all the Nightmares he was targeting.  Talk about my 'psychological warfare' strategy backfiring, LOL!

For the life of me, I can't figure if that is ironic or apropos.

But you get these theoretical problems when you dis 75% of your customer base.  ;D
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Nukelavee on April 09, 2011, 10:00:36 AM
oh that fucking rack deal.

lazy useless idiots didn't even open half the packing boxes while they had them.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Kindred on April 09, 2011, 11:38:22 AM
actually, my local store did a lot of stuff with LoS. We had weekly LoS game night and sold a fair number of the model (so much so that, once they were no longer available, our store didn't have any back stock.)

We even reviewed the game rules and prepared a full analysis from 6 of us long time gamers.
(sorry Clark, while we loved the LoS indoor game, we hated the PlanetStorm rules. We had about 10 pages of commentary on that -- which I, unfortunately, can no longer find)
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 09, 2011, 01:09:06 PM
Well, you will have a chance to recreate that commentary later this year.  Planetstorm needs a rework much worse than LOS, but one thing at a time.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Nukelavee on April 09, 2011, 01:40:33 PM
What was maddening about the rack deals was that very few stores that actually put the product out, didn't sell a fair bit of it.

It was teh return of so many packages, still sealed after 3 months, that was the issue - the stuff never even made it to the shelves.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: sergeant_hastp on April 09, 2011, 02:24:15 PM
I bet it was a WH40K-based conspiracy.  You know how cult-ish those people can be.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 09, 2011, 02:50:09 PM
More to do with the whole "Magic; The Gathering" insanity that was ripping through all of the gaming industry at the time.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 09, 2011, 05:59:05 PM
By the time the Rack Deal came out we had people coming to the table at conventions and buying one of everything after liquidating their Magic card collection. However, on release we got overshadowed by Magic, as did pretty much everyone else. LOS was nominated for an Origins Award for best graphic design.  We lost to Magic.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Dave Chase on April 10, 2011, 05:08:39 PM
Nothing wrong with tooting ones own horn, once in a while.

Question though,

Nothing wrong with all these fan and  background posts ;)

but are we going to get back to the grind of the 11-11-11 release of LOS?

(Like rules, fixes, changes, etc)

Dave Chase
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 10, 2011, 06:11:47 PM
I bet it was a WH40K-based conspiracy.  You know how cult-ish those people can be.

I never really contemplated that, even as a joke,
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 10, 2011, 06:16:35 PM
Nothing wrong with tooting ones own horn, once in a while.

Question though,

Nothing wrong with all these fan and  background posts ;)

but are we going to get back to the grind of the 11-11-11 release of LOS?

(Like rules, fixes, changes, etc)

Dave Chase

Before reading this post I posted something on Leadership.  I will follow up with a post on Suppression.  And there is some movement on things like formatting and roll modifiers.

Dave, start a thread on the diagonal rule and whether it should be 1-2-1-2 or 2-1-2-1 and I will weigh in after posting about suppression.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: grendeljd on April 11, 2011, 09:50:54 AM
oh that fucking rack deal.

lazy useless idiots didn't even open half the packing boxes while they had them.

I can't clearly recall if we had the rack deal set up in the stores I used to work at back then - one was mainly a used book / new comic shop with a small rpg section where we never carried mini's, only doing special orders for regular customers. But the other shop had two locations, both carried some mini's and I think one of them had lots of Global Games shelf product... what year did the rack deal start? The last time I worked in a comic store was the summer of '98.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 12, 2011, 05:15:00 AM
You needed a demo program. LOS was f*ing amazing to play. I really don't think "It's Spacehulk" could withstand the experience of LOS in play. I still remember one of the few games I actually got anyone to play, the game came down to a single commando legging it off the board through a hail of suppressive fire.... and surviving. It was awesome.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 12, 2011, 05:19:18 AM
When Marco and I playtested scenarios they usually came down to an initiative roll, straight up since the sergeant had blown his leadership as a matter of self preservation.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Arfiel on April 12, 2011, 10:31:01 AM
I remember the rack deals and am pretty sure they were mostly after your retail time grendel.

When I got 40k or space hulk players to try LOS it usually came to a respectful: "that is a good system, but I already spent all this money on games workshop."
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: bobloblah on April 12, 2011, 04:02:17 PM
GW is really the elephant in the room. Having said that, the last few times I've checked, their profits were steady, but their market-share was declining. The trick is to carve out a niche where they aren't, or do something to attract players that are disaffected with them. The latter seems the easier proposition to me, particularly for LoS/PS.

For people upset over cost, you'd be hard-pressed to be more expensive than GW. For those annoyed by the number of miniatures required, you have a small-scale skirmish game (that WH40k used to be). For those annoyed with poor rules and seeming lack of playtesting, you've got a tight ruleset that mimics real-world firefights well enough for those who've experienced combat to feel at home. For anyone upset waiting years for their favourite army list, you can release multiple armies together, then provide updates to all forces with new releases.

As for anyone who's a serious fan of WH40k, I doubt there's anything you're going to do to convert them, except over the much longer term. And I'd say that mostly comes down to them getting fed up with one or more of the problems I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: SgtHulka on April 12, 2011, 05:58:41 PM
GW is really the elephant in the room...The trick is to carve out a niche where they aren't, or do something to attract players that are disaffected with them. The latter seems the easier proposition to me, particularly for LoS/PS.

Isn't this sort of "been there, done that?" I mean, Global Games already went up against GW and GW won.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 12, 2011, 07:13:49 PM
Global only ran into trouble when LOS was no longer the flagship product. Global might have gone under but that is incidental to the potential of LOS to successfully compete with some of GWs products.

The basic strategy was to come out with two supplements per year and release two new figs per month. A fig's initial sales general covered the set up costs or more and then our residual sales - and profits - grew as the product line expanded and the customer base increased. With a puah from carrying cases and paints we doubled our sales each year but then flatlined in 1996 because that strategy was abandoned. I'd like to get back on that course, if possible, but without going about it the same way Global Games did.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Nukelavee on April 12, 2011, 09:51:18 PM
It was less LOS wasn't the flagship, and more it didn't get the time the flagship deserves.

Don't get me wrong, I think for a fast simple game, Inferno was pretty solid.  A lot of work went into the art and writing, and that benefitted from experience.

But...it was bad timing.  The energy was better applied to LOS.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 12, 2011, 11:16:06 PM
I was the idea guy so I have to take some responsibility for Inferno.

I think Marco did an amazing job with it (and Wes and Tom and Dave can feel free to steal his thunder on this point) but there was a fatal error in the system.  I have no idea if that had any connection to its commercial success: look at VHS or Windows.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 13, 2011, 05:41:20 AM
WARNING: SW HAS A LOT OF OPINIONS. I love talking about this stuff. Apart from my family and religion, the two things in life I love are miniatures and small business. So, while i have a lot to say, it's out of enthusiasm for the subject. That and I'm an ar**hole.

=====

Well, Inferno was a scale most fantasy and scifi gamers don't collect or paint. It was also a big effort into a new market, in effect.

Consider the people buying your products: they were ALL into board games or 28mm or military scifi, guaranteed.

Some might also have been into 6mm fantasy-horror, but that wasn't guaranteed. I mean, for example, I loved the military scifi of LOS and later appreciated the historical element. It was nice to have a straight scifi background, too. I am still collecting LOS miniatures as and when I find them. I have zero interest in Inferno; not saying it's bad, just saying there's no overlap.

There was still room for LOS to expand; some armies had only a handful of miniatures relatively speaking and those that had fuller lines, UNE and machines for example, had heaps of room for specialists, boutique sub-armies, or experiments in marketing that could be wound back if they failed (say, gruesome special castings for Bloodlord Overlords.... you bring out some zombies with Deadbolt launchers, if they fail, meh, if they sell you bring out an Assault Fiend that looks like a flesh and blood demon.... if it sells, hooray! If not, no biggie).

The point here is that gamers who like a line will likely stick with it and expand their collection. We tend to be that kind of animal. So the key would bhe to keep those guys buying and keep them happy with new shiny things, whilst tentatively adding things that they might like or might gain you some interest from fence-sitters, who will then perhaps start collecting an army, or two armies.

If you have a look at Reaper miniatures, everything they've tried that wasn't 28mm has failed to gain any real traction.

If you track them over time they've had their 28mm fantasy line of characters and monsters that they've expanded faithfully every month since forever.

Then they had a 15mm fantasy line they ditched.

Then they had an 8mm scifi line that never really gained much market share.

Then they introduced a new line of...... 28mm fantasy characters and monsters, which had a game attached and was mildly successful but which still mainly makes its money off the same set of customers as the original 28mm fantasy line.

So now they have two lines of 28mm fantasy that are interchangeable and which they faithfully expand every month.

Finally they recently added a line of...... 28mm sci-fi characters and monsters which they faithfully expand every month.

Nothing they've done has been show-stopping. Their miniatures are good quality but not the superb, critically acclaimed artworks that Rackham was producing before it.... you guessed it... went bust. They don't have rights to a big IP like the Starship Troopers miniatures line before it.... you guessed it.... went bust (actually it got shelved). They don't even have any really original IP like FASA did before it.... went bust. Their successful lines are not original. Don't get me wrong, I love their miniatures, they're good and they're well-priced. Reaper don't take bets they can't afford to lose, don't borrow money, and keep their eyes on the meat and bones of business: marginal cost of production, cash flow, balance sheets.

So yeah, I hve been hanging out on the Reaper boards since they went up six years ago, and the folks from Reaper do in fact talk shop there.

Last thing is, OF COURSE Clark knows his business better than I do! I'm just throwing up a combination of trivia, observation from the sidelines, and a smattering of actual experience in the general overlap of business. Farming. No, it doesn't just come out of the ground and then you get paid for it,  LOL.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Nukelavee on April 13, 2011, 11:42:07 AM
Pretty solid points, SW.

As for Reaper - Ed is a shark.  He's a very very smart businessman, who understands what works, and when to move.

One of his strengths is knowing where his business can outmaneuver another.  When RAFM started to slow down, and before they had time to adjust, Reaper was there.

Btw, RAFM's problems directly affected LOS, in that they did our casting, and once they started taking hits, it got harder to maintain our releases.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 13, 2011, 04:43:27 PM
  LOS was growing just when GW was really antagonizing retailers and distributors...It really was in a place to hold a significant spot in the 32mm(ish) SF miniatures market, although there were others moving in to exploit this gap as well.  Then, the decision was made to switch horses.  Not my call, but after Junction Point, the main emphasis switched to Inferno.  Until it was finally decided that Planetstorm HAD to come out to give LOS fans something other than the odd new arm set for Fantasians or Infranites, etc.  I was the only one working on LOS at all.  A fair bit of the spot art for JP and Planetstorm was cannibalized from an LOS comic that never saw release.  Finally, when it was seen that LOS really was just as important to GG as Inferno we had lost the initiative as it were.
  Planetstorm, or Typostorm, as Wes and I like to refer to it, was finalized and coallated in one epic Easter long weekend plagued with software malfunctions, lack of open copy centers...remember, this was in the infancy of desktop publishing.  The photos were taken on a "cutting edge" digital camera called a "Snappy" that was less than a megapixel...etc.,etc..
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 13, 2011, 04:47:29 PM
I was writing rough drafts for the manuscript and Wes was editing them as he entered them into the sole office computer, then Marco would lay out the page text, print it out and I would do the mechanical paste ups, whereupon we would take the pages to be photocopied...Crazy stuff...
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 13, 2011, 08:41:58 PM
I wasn't around for that but it illustrates the hilarity of small business. . .when the business is not yours at that point.

You traitors, lol, I thought some fan coined "TypoStorm" .

The strength that GG had to start was the way the three of us interacted.  It is providence that Marco and marketing are such similar words.  :D  Derrick was the conservative who kiboshed certain whacky notions from time to time.  I was the creative genesis and filter, and the ideological moderate of the group. I was the idea guy and the guy who took ideas played with them.

FYI: Inferno was my idea.  My working title was simply "EVIL". Who do you cheer for when princes of Hell go to battle?  Anyways , it was in its infancy when I parted ways with Marco/Global and let him run with it as long as LOS was mine, mine, mine.  Same-same with Stalingrad.  It was my idea to port the LOS system into the biggest WWII FIBUA meat grinder on record.

Inferno was a journeyman work by a guy who knew how to package a game.  It was years later that I realized the flaws in the mechanics I originally developed, because I never playtested them.  The Inferno figs need some sort of endurance factor to draw their power from before it is drawn from vitality. Add a new line on the chart and most of the problems should go away.

But until I have evidence to the contrary, it was the Europeans that screwed GG and therefore LOS.

My memory is fuzzy, but I think Infrerno sold something like 12,000 copies which catapulted it into a top 10 position.

Wes, Tom: the Europeans pay up?



Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 14, 2011, 04:20:37 AM
FWIW, the painting section in Planetstorm was the first time I'd had actual technique explained to me by a gaming publication. Cheers to whoever wrote that in.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 14, 2011, 06:49:40 AM
I'm sure GW has done something like it. 

Over the past couple of weeks I sent out some feelers with a view to taking the miniature painting guide from Planetstorm and releasing it as an online PDF on a pay as you will basis.

The text and pics are great but maybe Tom wants to tweak it a decade and a half later
If Wes still has his typesetting skills . . .
Kindred runs this site and has a PayPal account.

To be clear, it's a labour of love that I don't expect any money from.  But if Tom and Wes are willing to put it together and Will acts as banker, I thought that would be a  win-win-win scenario because it would be good PR for LOS.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 14, 2011, 09:56:31 AM
At the time, the painting guides in GW game books were a lousy joke. I mean that, looking back as a now merely acceptable painter, their painting guides were total garbage and contained not the slightest hint of actual technique. While I have learned a lot since, that was my first exposure to actual useful painting advice. It may remain a decent guide to wet-blending, I'm not sure, I'd have to go back and read. These days there's a lot of really good advice on the 'net, but not much of it is on wet-blending, or blending and feathering or whatever you call it. Mostly these days people talk about layering.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Nukelavee on April 14, 2011, 02:19:30 PM
The painting guide was entirely Tom.

Inferno actually sold more than 12,000 copies, it sold 12k on release.

If the Europeans (read Germans, actually, because the Dutch and Belgians did pay, in general) ever paid, it was a fraction of what they owed, and so incredibly late it pretty much was meaningless.

With Inferno, we were incredibly lucky, flaws, mistiming, and all.  For all the lightness of the system itself, the creative team REALLY had a ton of control on some things, and the "colour" writing, art, and graphic design was very cohesive.

plus, i had a bigger role than in any other project, so, yay me!
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 14, 2011, 07:19:21 PM
Okay, some LOS fans were all "damn Inferno for killing LOS!" or "Damn marco for loving Satan!" (I kid you not). Lots of super-interesting infogossip coming out here. I had no idea of the scale of some of the stuff GG was into, or very nearly into.

So the moral of this story is that satan is relatively trustworthy, but Germans pay COD. My German great-grandparents were reputed to have much the same opinion.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 14, 2011, 07:41:13 PM
I don't mind updating the painting guide...but you'll hear nothing but scorn for non-metal metallics...What other info is needed?  I know  there's a ton of good stuff on the 'net already.  I do a lot of vehicle weathering without powders or airbrushes that budgetary minded gamers might find useful.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 14, 2011, 07:56:15 PM
And to think, Inferno was originally my idea, the concept anyways and some of the basic mechanics.  It was an excuse for Global to launch a line of fantasy miniatures that wouldn't be generic.  I figured that Tom and Wes would go nuts with the designs.  My actual contribution could fit on the back of a playing card.  I wanted to simply call it Evil, and the tagline would be "This game is Evil!"  Marco didn't like it; he thought it would offend someone.  So then he got the idea to connect it to Dante.

I remember that it sold 12,000 copies right off the bat, which immediately launched it into the top 10 of fantasy miniatures games.  It was a beautifully put together package.  But after it came out I noticed a flaw in the game design.  There was a simple fix but it was too late at that point.

Tom, you lost me there with non-metal metallics.

I seem to have Planetstorm as Quark files but no way to open them.

And I was thinking that maybe Wes could do the layout but apparently he hasn't done any for a few years.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 14, 2011, 08:34:11 PM
  Non metal metallics...using greys etc to simulate steel...nothing with metal flake in it.  After all, in flat paintings, they don't use metallic paint.  I think, said the old fogey, that this is just showing off blending skill, adding another layer of artificiality to the whole deal, except, perhaps in a vey specific diorama, such as a light box...
  Re: Stalingrad....Frak, that could've been great if it had just used the straight LOS engine.
  Clark, have I ever mentioned a little concept I came up with on the infamous bus ride of doom...a little concept called "Hitler's Head"?  It'd play real nice using LOS.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 14, 2011, 09:07:51 PM
Ok, non-metal metallics.

Did Stalingrad actually get released?  I saw a PDF or something of a completed rule book.  And I've seen some of the figs.

I've mentioned a few places that I'd like to release an open gaming system, like WotC did with d20.  A lot of players do it anyways by porting their favourite properties into LOS.  Steve Gibson has done more than half a dozen:

http://stevegibsongames.wordpress.com/legions-of-steel-conversion-files/ (http://stevegibsongames.wordpress.com/legions-of-steel-conversion-files/)

It would be good to get everyone on the same page.

And it's not like Stalingrad is going anywhere.  Once I get Planetstorm straightened out and non-powered troops it would be easy to port in WWII troops.

I vaguely remember Hitler's Head but not the details of how it would be LOS-ish.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Kindred on April 15, 2011, 12:17:06 AM
I still have several of my Inferno miniatures sitting on my shelf... and a few others still in the display case down at the local store.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Nukelavee on April 15, 2011, 09:50:38 AM
Well, in terms of how things worked out for Global the company,Inferno complicated things in ways we didn't expect.

On the other hand...A lot of people had a lot of fun playing it,  and we produced/created some mighty nice figures and artwork.

In my opinion, the team managed to display a huge improvement in teh "finished" quality of the product, and, had ANY of the "wtf" events not gone bad...those lessons would have made for some serious nice releases.

I think some people have a bit of a misguided opinion of Marco's decisions and actions - Without his sheer energy and optimism, and sales/marketing talents, a lot less would have happened.  Some events simply can't be predicted.

West End's fall, and the Star Wars line are a great example?  The real reason that failed?  West End's owner had 2 companies, the other did import/export of fine leather goods.  They switched from carrying a certain line of shoes and purses...

Hillary Clinton did an interview with Barbara Walters, where Barb oohed and awwed over her shoe/purse combo.

Yeah, turns out it was the line that had just been dropped, meaning the leathergoods business owned by West End's owner went down, taking his other stuff with it.

So, yeah - Barbara Walters and her big mouth are the reason it didn't happen.

How the hell can a person plan for that crap?

On the other hand...who the hell expected Derek to be out in the parking lot when Clark desperately called from the customs impound?
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 15, 2011, 10:37:03 AM
Yeah I'm getting the impression that Marco was pretty good at what he did, actually.

You make some mistakes and some other stuff just goes wrong outside of your control, and bad things all hit just so, and you're out of business, or very close to it. I've seen that, oh how I've seen that.

That West End thing happens ALL THE TIME, by the way.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 15, 2011, 01:08:39 PM
There are a number of appropriate sayings:

All skill is in vain when an angel pees in your barrel.
There is always one more SOB than you counted on.
Fate favours the prepared mind.

Global Games took a triple whammy with Star Wars, the X-Game and trying to get paid on the Inferno deliveries.  Like Wes said, you can't plan for some of these things, especially when the planets align like that all in the space of a few months.

Marco is a talented businessman and his best talent is to recognize talent.  About the only substantial criticism one can make is that he tried to move too far, too fast with Global Games.  That exposed him to risk and when that risk materialized, that was all she wrote.

His next business venture took a decade to build up and in the first few years he funded it out of full-time employment at a "real" job.  Now he uses the profits from that business to fund his movie producing ventures.

Before Tom, Wes, Dave and I got really involved, Global went from retailer to distributor to publisher in the space of a couple of years. The jump to manufacturer was huge but trying to take one boxed game and work it into full-time employment for 3 or more people is something that could have been stretched out over a couple more years. 
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 16, 2011, 12:20:08 AM
Yeah, probably pretty ambitious. There are pretty successful gaming co's where nobody is a full-time employee AFAIK. Majestic Twelve is one. I think Reaper might have one full-time 2D artist and all sculpture is done on a work-for hire basis.

Pure trivia, but years after GG went down, every man and his dog started packaging miniatures paint in drop bottles. Did the Colour Drop System ever actually make it to market?

By pure chance I picked up an indie horror movie magazine and saw what I swear was Marco's name in it about 2 or 3 years ago. And I thought to myself "How many people called Marco Pecota might there be in the English speaking world?"
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 16, 2011, 12:43:01 AM
Marco is a long time and best friend.  I am fully aware of his strengths , weaknesses, and limitations as a person given that we have known each other for 30 years.

I will critique but never slag him.

Keep in mind that there would be no LOS without him.  Sure, it was my idea and there would be no LOS without me, but it was his drive that made it happen.

What Marco is doing now is Rue Morgue magazine.  He is also putting together a movie.  Now, if anyone here thinks that raising $7 million while convincing Mads Mikelson and Harvey Keitel that you've got a winner is easy, then step up or shut up.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 16, 2011, 01:33:35 AM
LOL, no! It was just such a bizarre coincidence- and that was the magazine! Rue Morgue. But, from what you've said it's not much of a coincidence. Movies are another intersection of art and business.

It's been really enlightening hearing people with an actual clue talk about GG. It just makes me all the sadder that it folded.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 16, 2011, 08:31:34 AM
Marco and I are opposite sides of the same coin.  Back in 1996 I made a personal decision to go to law school while he did what he does best: cutting deals and engaging talent to move things forward. There is a plausible chance that if I had stuck with GG and faced down Marco and his (what would only later revealed to be) missteps, then maybe things would have gone different. I don't want to get into that speculation.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Nukelavee on April 16, 2011, 10:40:45 AM
Same here, Clark.

Btw - Marco basically helped midwife Rue Morgue to where it is today.  He met the founder, Rod G, back when Global was still running, and began to work with Rod then.

I've worked for Marco in both the games industry, and outside it - Marco...is Marco.  He has some faults, but they are far outweighed by his good points.

Blaming Marco for how things went...?  Might as well blame Clark for buggering off to school when he did.

Plus, remember - all of us under 30 at the time, creating a business that had deals going world-wide?

I also seem to recall that the initial art for Inferno may have been funded by a seriously longshot bet at a roulette wheel...
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Dave Chase on April 16, 2011, 02:41:12 PM
Though I am fully enjoying most of the history of what happened and how, I kind of feel this thread  is currently heading in a direction that if we were all in the same room, I would

politely tell you all of you former GG guys to go to a resturant/bar and finish the long talk about things past and catch up to current day.
 :)

It is hard to not be passionate about something you loved and created and were deeply involved in.

What I would like to see (take) from this thread, is what we can do to make things better on the next (new) 3e release of LOS/Planetstorm.

:D

Dave Chase
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: Clark on April 16, 2011, 07:58:57 PM
Wes and I are obviously on the same page here.

Dave, I have invited you to a special discussion about the business aspects of LOS.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 18, 2011, 09:09:01 AM
Well now that they've gone for a beer, the rest of us are free to conspire against them.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 20, 2011, 12:50:20 AM
Huh, my experience was the opposite. I have never lost a vallejo or a Reaper Master Series. Most of my screw-top citadels were toast within months.
Title: Re: Too much ego?
Post by: grendeljd on April 20, 2011, 09:53:58 AM
Though I am fully enjoying most of the history of what happened and how, I kind of feel this thread  is currently heading in a direction that if we were all in the same room, I would

politely tell you all of you former GG guys to go to a resturant/bar and finish the long talk about things past and catch up to current day.
 :)

It is hard to not be passionate about something you loved and created and were deeply involved in.

What I would like to see (take) from this thread, is what we can do to make things better on the next (new) 3e release of LOS/Planetstorm.

:D

Dave Chase

I think its great to hear the behind-the-scenes stuff from the past - this site isn't meant purely for business, but also as a place for fans to interact as well. Getting to read this stuff from the few guys currently around that were part of the games original run is like having a bonus special feature dvd on your favourite film. People want to hear it.

I say keep it up fellas - but to be fair to Dave's comments above, don't let it distract you too much from doing a kick-ass remake!  ;D

Now as for the beginnings of paint product discussion within this thread - take THAT to the right part of the forum, please!  ;) ;D