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Author Topic: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)  (Read 2179 times)

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Offline Dave Chase

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Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« on: February 19, 2011, 07:37:41 PM »
From Advance Rules book page 30

Quote
Ammunition Rules

Most weapons cannot be fired all day without restriction. Different rules apply depending on the type of weapon and it’s ammunition.

Ordinance (o): This refers to ammunition which a physically fired out of the weapon. Bullets, grenades, etc. all fall under this category. The number of burst a weapon can fire before reloading is listed on the weapon chart. One point of ammo is used when firing normally, 2 points when auto firing and 4 points when suppressing. The Deadbolt Launcher, Deadbolt Carbine, Deadbolt Pistol, Ice Rifle and Flechette Pistol have one reload.

Heat (h): Some weapons have unlimited ammunition but the weapon heats up when it is fired. The number of burst a weapon can fire before it is overheated is listed on the weapon chart. This number is the weapons beat tolerance. One point of heat is gained when firing normally, 2 points when auto firing and 4 points when suppressing. The weapon can not fire when it it’s heat tolerance is equal to or below 0. To cool the weapon down, the figure must blow their fire action (put a fired counter beside the figure). The heat is reduced by 3 points.

Energy Capacitors (e): Some weapons have unlimited ammunition but the weapon uses stored energy when it is fired. The number of bursts a weapon can fire before it is out of energy is listed on the weapon chart. This number is the weapon’s energy capacitors capacity. One point of energy is lost when firing normally, 2 points when auto firing and 4 points when suppressing. This type of weapon regains ½ of a point of energy per turn.

Overheating (Optional): With this rule, weapons can continue to fire if they are overheated, but at a penalty. After surpassing the heat tolerance, the weapon receives -1 to fire. At double the heat tolerance the weapon receives a -2 to fire and at triple it receives a -3 to fire, etc. Every turn a figure with an overheated weapon is activated a die must be rolled to see if the current penalty becomes permanent for the rest of the battle. On a roll of 1 the penalty becomes permanent. These penalties are cumulative.
So here is my questions.

Should this be in Planetstorm?
We always used it playing tabletop.
Since such a rule exists for o type ammo on table top, it severely hurts Infranites and Fantasians as compare to UNE.

If such a rule does exist in Planetstorm, couldn’t rules (costs) be included to allow those armies with o type weapons to purchase additional reloads (more than is on their base card)?
Hand weapons (CC types) are listed for addition cost on some armies, so why not extra reloads for weapons?

As an additional piece of equipment for weapons that are h type, could one purchase super charged cooldown packs? Say that each figure could purchase only 1, cost 10 points , it cools a h type weapon by 10 points and takes a firing action to use. It’s a one shot item.

Additionally, I would like to see a pick up rule for weapon reloads, similar to the ‘Recovery of Grenades’ rule from page 33 of the LOS Rules book.

Quote
Recovery of Grenades (page 33)
Commandos can recover grenades from their fallen comrades. When a Commando figure is killed, any of it’s unused grenade counters are placed with in the square which it last occupied. The counters are placed with the "USED" side facing up. Other Commando figures may then pick up the grenades and use them at a later time. To pick up a grenade, a figure must move onto the square the grenade is in and use a fire action. The player should place the grenade counter under one of the figures unused grenade counters or invert a used grenade of the same type. Carrying excess grenades does not hinder a Commando figure’s movement or fire.

Machines could conceivably pick up unused grenades as well. However, no provisions exist in the basic set for several reasons. Nightmares are not very intelligent machines and would not consider picking up grenades. Also, with the number of dead Nightmares that can accumulate, the number of Nachtmacher grenades left on the board would become unmanageable. Since both sides of the Nachtmacher grenade are used on the board they could also become confused with those in play.


An extra bit of rule if needed could be applied for reality issues (or to keep it from getting to out of hand).
Once a figure attempts to recover items from a downed figure, a die is rolled to determine if said items(s ) are still functional. On a roll of 1, said item picked up is not functional.


Dave Chase
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Offline Clark

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 08:00:18 PM »
The key considerations are realism and playability (in this case, bookkeeping).  Ammo falls in the optional category of the Rules Matrix because it is something I acknowledge as a valid concern but won't advocate specificially for it, while there is a limited, objective need to use the rules.

We eye-balled something of an "encumbrance" system where each frame could only carry so much weaponry.  It's a fudge because we didn't want to get into too much detail about what each trooper could carry.


Encumbrance is based on two factors.  First is the sheer weight of an object.  The second is, where the heck do you put it?  Powered troopers would probably not have to worry about the first for o ammo but the latter would come into play.

The third thing is simply a matter of doctrine as to how much ammo or firepower each trooper carries.

We didn't refine the rules but your question is valid.  A fire action should allow you to loot a body up to your FCL.  The question is can you exceed FCL?

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 08:48:41 PM »
The key considerations are realism and playability (in this case, bookkeeping).  Ammo falls in the optional category of the Rules Matrix because it is something I acknowledge as a valid concern but won't advocate specificially for it, while there is a limited, objective need to use the rules.
Optional is fine/cool. As long as across the board equal option is there. :)

Quote
We eye-balled something of an "encumbrance" system where each frame could only carry so much weaponry.  It's a fudge because we didn't want to get into too much detail about what each trooper could carry.


Encumbrance is based on two factors.  First is the sheer weight of an object.  The second is, where the heck do you put it?  Powered troopers would probably not have to worry about the first for o ammo but the latter would come into play.
Ah, yes, but another reason for the question (though not the prime one) is that you have listed in the Advance Rules that '... carrying excess grenades does not hinder ...'

Quote
The third thing is simply a matter of doctrine as to how much ammo or firepower each trooper carries.

We didn't refine the rules but your question is valid.  A fire action should allow you to loot a body up to your FCL.  The question is can you exceed FCL?
FCL= Full Combat Load yes? :)

Highly detailed and extremely optional rule(s ) should possibly address this.
IMO a possibility (take UNE troops)

Pathfinder P.B.A. capacity
FCL: Blaster (or RAM Laser), 2 F-Grenades, Target Designator (field), Rocket pack (field)
Max Limit: Hand held long arm, pistol, 4 grenades, a backpack (or rocket pack), Target Designator

Paladin P.B.A. capacity
FCL: Blaster (or RAM Laser), 1 F-Grenade, 1 K-Pulse Grenade, (or a Grenade Launcher)
Max Limit: Hand held long arm, pistol, 6 grenades, a backpack or an indirect fire weapon (like a seperate grenade launcher)
Max Limit for support weapon (Hvy): Support weapon, pistol, 4 grenades, backpack only or portable pack fusion for weapon (eliminates the need for a E-Link figure), or 2 loads for an o type weapon. (Takes 2 firing actions by the figure carrying these reloads to use a reload. First one to remove the reload from the carry position, second firing action to reload. This is true for either the primary hvy weapon figure or another figure assisting them.)
Max Limit for support trooper to a Hvy weapon trooper: Support weapon, pistol, 4 grenades, 4 reloads at the ready and backpack only or portable pack fusion for weapon (eliminates the need for a E-Link figure), or 2 loads for an o type weapon. These 2 extra loads require 2 firing actions to used, 1st one is to remove the reload from the carry position, second one is to either reload the Hvy weapon or hand the reload off to another.

Ironsides P.B.A. Capacity
FCL= Ram Laser, Grenade launcher, 4 wrist rockets, 4 FTG Grenades,
Max Limit: Hand held long arm, pistol, 6 grenades, a backpack or an indirect fire weapon (like a seperate grenade launcher), 4 wrist rockets, 2 reloads for an o type weapon.
(Takes 2 firing actions by the figure carrying these reloads to use a reload. First one to remove the reload from the carry position, second firing action to reload. This is true for either the primary hvy weapon figure or another figure assisting them.)


Very Optional Rules
The backpack can carry up to (blank) equipment. It takes 1 firing action to remove backpack (or gain entry to backpack by another figure), 1 firing action to remove item from backpack, 1 firing action to replace backpack (or reseal backpack by another figure), 1 action to reload, install, prep the item for use.
A backpack that is not replaced or resealed will lose items. A check for what items are lost from backpack is not done until the pack is searched/used again. Roll 1 die for each item on a 1 or 2 the item has been lost.



Carrying/wearing more than the above listed items causes Encumbrance issues.
Any fire action is +1 by an encumbered figure
Carrying items equal to or more than ½ as much more, has the following penalties; -1 movement, + 1 to fire
(example a Pathfinder P.B.A. carrying 6 grenades and 2 pistols or 8 grenades)
Carrying twice the number of listed items penalties are; -1 movement, +2 to fire
Carrying 3 times the number of listed items penalties are; -2 movement, no fire allowed.


Dave Chase
Freedom is the right to speak your mind.

It is also the right to walk away from those you don't want to listen to.

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 06:35:23 AM »
As a quick thought, maybe keep looting to over the FCL as an NPI perk? My logic is that PI restricts dexterity and movement. The Commandos have magnetic tabs for their grenades, Nightmares pick one up in their off hand as they walk off the end of the production line, and things like the BAP basically don't even have hands.

Essentially what I'm implying is that it's relatively difficult to add extra luggage to a fully enclosed suit of armour while you're wearing gauntlets. For weapons with a power feed, implied for the RAM, Blaster, and Plasma Projector, that hitches to your fusion powerplant, it should probably be impossible to use non-standard weaponry without some sort of downtime for re-wiring. It's implied that different FCL requires different configuration, at least for the UNE troopers.

I'd think there'd be some PI who could carry whatever they could scrounge. Pioneers obviously, possibly Commandos, even more possibly Recce Commandos. It's implied Infranites can go for exceptional (by UNE standards) periods without having to overhaul or recharge their armour, so I'd expect them to have made their non-BAP suits more "livable" including dexterous gauntlets and basic engineering/repair gear.

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 06:28:24 PM »
Backpacks

I am not thinking of the huge carry everything monsters that you see some campers or over the top military carry. I am talking about a small pack that can hold the following

Load 1: 4 meals, a shelter half, a gallon of water
Load 2: 6 meals, 2 gallons of water
Load 3: 4 grenades
Load 4a: 2 Satchel charges
Load 4b: 1 bomb (?)
Load 5: Paramedic kit
Load 6a: 2 Carl-G magazines
Load 6b: 2 BS-2 Grenade Launcher magazines
Load 6c: 2 B-3 Grenade Launcher magazines
Load 6d: 2 Flechette magazines
Load 6e: 1 Smart Mine
Load 6f: 8 wrist rocket reloads
Load 7: Armor’s tool kit
Load 8: C&C high powered radio, hand held computer, tech tools
Load 9: Body markers (used to mark fallen comrades after the battle for Rear Support to pickup)


I listed/numbered them in the order that I thought would be the most used
Load 1 is for mainly PI troops
Load 2 is for Commandos

The shelter half is used so that if needed (and the planet can sustain human life) that the trooper could talk their helmet off.

Jump Recon Troops can not wear a backpack

Dave Chase
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Offline sergeant_hastp

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2011, 07:12:54 AM »
I think he means that it would be very hard to get anything out of a backpack...or small pack...or anything that isn't magnetically attached within easy reach to the outside surface of the armour, while wearing powered body armour. It'd probably be like getting things out of your ruck while wearing hockey gloves.

AND that sort of thing would likely be done between firefights, not during.  Powered Body Armour troops would normally carry extra equipment in their follow-on kit, or have it issued by QMS in the field as required/ as conditions allow.

LoS and Planetstorm seem to represent firefights, not battles.  Firefights as part of a larger battle perhaps, but timeframe is pretty narrow.

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 08:52:27 AM »
Packs, whether butt packs, day/patrol packs or full size rucksacks are part of a foot soldier's gear.

As a soldier you will not always be able to determine when and where you be in a firefight nor when you will get resupplied.

In real life if you get caught in an ambush or shot at while carrying you either drop your extra gear at first chance, or you fight with it on.
Rucks ususally get dropped, patrol packs depended on SOP, and butt packs usually never dropped.

If you have time, you would either stage your gear in a secure area/spot, or at a rally point before moving into an operation or potential fire fight.

Basically, with the possibility of having a RPG with the future release of LOS/Planetstorm, I was offering ways to cover this part of UNE troops (or other Alien troops that travel light and might be far from resupply).

It should be hard to drop, retrive an item and then put the pack back on during a fire fight, hence the number of fire actions suggested.

I consider the above packs that I suggested in an earlier post as patrol packs due to 2 reasons; 1 that is not much space left for anything on a PI trooper, 2 Commandos will be operating beyond most supply/support lines for extended periods of time.

Dave Chase
Freedom is the right to speak your mind.

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Offline Clark

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 10:29:47 AM »
What I am seeing from the discussion is that each frame would have a limited number of hardpoints for weapon mounts. From my own thoughts that woukd be divided up into "soft points"  (accessible areas for grenades that you can't mount a weapon on) and a 3 point scale from one shot weapons (wrist rockets or TOW-7) to hand weapons to two handed weapons. There might be a spot in the middle to differentiate between rifles and carbines.

Offline sergeant_hastp

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 10:32:49 AM »

The 'packs' would have to be more along the lines of external racks.  There would have to be an adjustment for the buddy system as well, I imagine.

My guess (and unless someone who knows says otherwise) is if you are in hard-armoured suit like Paladin body armour (judging from the illustrations of the suit and the figures themselves) you will not be able to reach your armour-gauntleted hand into any kind of conventional pack

Things they would carry would therefore have to be external, and large enough to grip easily, like the magnetic-mount grenades.


As for the rest; infantry doctrine and SOP-wise, you are preaching to the choir,  I've been there done it, have dozens of T-shirts.

But we aren't exactly talking about classic light infantry here are we?

What kind of supply train is required to field a power armour battalion?  When on the advance, do Powered Infantry have carriers, or do they walk across the surface of the planet to get to the machine complexes?  By the description of a Planetstorm Operation, they'd be landing far from the complexes and their ridiculous level of anti-air and anti-orbit defenses and fighting across a good chunk of the surface to get to the entrances.

This would be important to know before designing what PI troops are or are not going to be carrying when and if they walk into an ambush while travelling.

Either way, I'm not starting a pissing contest with you mate, just clarifying.

Offline Clark

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2011, 10:41:02 AM »
Yes, backpacks are useless in combat. You need mags and grenades at the ready.

As for a supply train,  it is mostly from space with supply drops. Sweep away the supporting spaceships and the ground troops will be in a world of problems (literally).

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Ammo (o, h, e or hoe)
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2011, 11:44:11 AM »
:)

Nope, no pissing contest here. I don't play those games. ;)

I was thinking more along the lines of bubby support to put a pack on. But a PI pack could be dropped by the wearer or taken off by a buddy.

Been there done that too, its why most of what I posted actually makes sense (on why packs don't go to firefight.)

Note the order of the packs that I listed. Food/water first, ammo next then the other stuff.

I see the Commandos as Light Infantry, Rangers if you will. They have a set mission and are specialized. But they also have to count on the fact that they might not have the long term support. Ie, they might go in, make a cache or rally point stash and then go do the mission.

But, if the mission is deep inside the LOS complex, they might not make a cache/rally point stash until they are inside a ways.

As for making hardpoints on PI suits, that would work. But, I don't want to make you do lots of extra work to early (Clark), I would rather see a updated LOS/Planetstorm released with a supplement covering more on PI suits and stragety/tactics (for each race) later.

Maybe, I am being a to bit realistic in trying to get the patrol pack in the rules. I just figured that it might be better to address it now during updating than later when players start asking why can't the PI troops carry more items (weight).

Maybe the Pioneer suit fram has a Supply version that carries the extra equpment. ???

Dave Chase
Freedom is the right to speak your mind.

It is also the right to walk away from those you don't want to listen to.