Legions of Steel Forum
Legions of Steel => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Clark on April 29, 2011, 10:25:53 PM
-
This is sort of a general question that is thrown out to the membership.
Part of the elegance of LOS is that you score a kill, and the guy dies, and they are removed from board. I recall one commenter saying how deadly the Mk I Assault Fiend it with "2 hit point!".
The thing is, combat can affect you in ways that don't take you out of the action entirely.
In Planetstorm and LOS I am talking about the concepts of pinning and wounding. These are effects just shy of a kill.
In a pin you put them on the defensive and you can kill them if they try to fight back.
On a wound they lose movement and or take a penalty on firing or both.
Take a look at the draft rules for pinning and wounding. I am not wedded to the use of cards so the use of dice would effectively create a saving thow: if your dude has a kill scored on them, then a roll of the dice might convert that into a pin or wound or both.
-
To me a pin is a tactical position- not a result of a hit. Its the result of incoming fire. I am forced into a defensive posture because I am lucky enough not to be dead. I am pinned down when the enemy is suppressing me more than I am suppressing him. I am pinned when I see that the intersection ahead is being both suppressed and covered by multiple enemies. It makes me want to pause and think of a better plan. "Who has the K-Pulse or Mini Plas?"
However lets keep Pinned as a term we can use for a possible effect of being hit...
A wound on the other hand is non-fatal hit. Despite my armor, cover and sprint ability that damn gremlin rolled an 8.
The hit can have several effects:
"Earth Dogs DIE HARD" It can make a hero hole in my body and armor and piss me off. (No effect)
"Oh ****" I immediately stop, get small and seek cover I may find myself pinned or exposed with no cover. (Pin)
"I ain't got time to bleed" I can "ranger up" and continue the fight (-1move,-1fire)
"Medic!" It can take me out of action (incapacitated, but not dead for campaign)
"That didn't hurt"...thud (Kill)
Perhaps a less complicated rule to resolve the effect of a "exact hit"
The defender rolls a D6 using the target number of 6
+1 for expending a hero/leadership point (this forces them to use them wisely)
All other modifiers would really be irrelevant. They firer has already overcome range, cover, movement etc to actually score the hit. The defender has already taken account his armor etc.
Special Weapons like mention in the rule document could receive special modifiers
7+ Hero Hole
6 -5 Wound or Pin Defenders Choice
4 Wound or Pin (random)
3 Wound and Pin
2 Incapacitated
1 Kill is scored
As always just brainstorming and having some fun. The scale could change. You could use 2D6 with additional options etc
-
One of the big points for LoS was that the majority of all fire actions were resolved with one die roll. When the wounding rules came out it added a little bit but didnt happen often enough to slow the game down. I would be very wary of adding anymore die rolls to the combat system for fire actions. Down that way is a slippery slope that leads to insanity (roll to hit, roll to wound, roll for armor, roll for special ability, roll for ...)
This core mechanic kept LoS moving briskly and didnt get bogged down when large firefights happened.
I would lean towards the -
one less than kill = pin (a second pin counts as a wound? *or see below)
exact kill # = wound
1 > kill # = kill
* maybe a unit could have multiple pin markers on it? Each one requires a morale check to remove or acts as a modifier to the morale roll. High rate of fire weapons would then be better at successfully suppressing an area. Otherwise high morale units will be shrugging off suppression like rain water.
Granted it would require a refiguring of weapons cost and lightly armored troops would be at a slight disadvantage. We have played with wounding on the kill or 1 less # for a long time and the game balance has not been broken one way or the other from our experience so I dont think this will be that drastic.
Charles
-
The simple fix I was looking at is similar to what Scoutzout suggests:
Roll 1d6
+1 if figure is already pinned
-1 for suppression fire
2- Pin
3 Pin+Wound
4 Wound
5+ Kill
Or
2- Pin
3-4 Pin+Wound
5-6 Wound
7+ Kill
There seems to be a consensus that this sort of roll shoild not be done everytime you score a ki but rather on some exceptional basis, like rolling the kill# exactly.
-
You could always throw an additional different colored die at the same time as the to hit roll.
This other colored die is the hit effect roll. If a hit happens, this is the effect.
That way you could have modifiers to the hit effect which is only added to the colored die if a hit takes place.
Dave Chase
-
@Dave..a lot of experienced gamers would throw exactly that way. The effect dice/special dice are used in a lot of current systems. Whether its official or not players tend to develop their own little ways of making the game go a little faster.
@Charles, I agree completely with you. More die roll, more counters, more record keeping sucks. What I was proposing happens only on the exact roll. That way the weapons stay the same, the pin effects are incorporated and I only have to know the kill number and above. Anything else is a miss or saved by armor etc.
@Clark, For something like this you would have to decide what was "worse" to do the graduated scale. Is a wound worse than a pin? Some players may think differently
Pin
Wound
Pin+Wound
Kill
I still like the idea of a hero shot.... :P
-
@Dave..a lot of experienced gamers would throw exactly that way. The effect dice/special dice are used in a lot of current systems. Whether its official or not players tend to develop their own little ways of making the game go a little faster.
...
I think I mentioned this in another thread,
back 10 years ago, it was becoming popular to use the dice from Koplow that was a clear 6 sided that had 3 different smaller 6 sided dice inside it.
I have some of their other clear dice with a die in it, but the 3 of 6 was a popular die in many wargames and RPG's.
Dave Chase
-
I'd be happiest if it were optional.
What about a system where you could spend Ld or HP to get a "luck" roll (similar to or replacing the "Oh Sh!t" rule that gives you a straight-up saving throw). Basically what I'm thinking about here is making it an active part of the game rather than just adding more rules. You would have limited chances to keep a guy in the campaign or the game, so you would have to choose. The problem with that is that it would always make sense to spend those points early.
The detailed rules as they stand are detailed enough that I'd never use them, so I'm not the target audience, but if I were to use them I'd prefer a roll to a card draw, especially if cards were already being used for initiative, for example.
-
@Clark, For something like this you would have to decide what was "worse" to do the graduated scale. Is a wound worse than a pin? Some players may think differently
Pin
Wound
Pin+Wound
Kill
I still like the idea of a hero shot.... :P
Yes and no. As long as pins are at the bottom and kills are at the top then the chance of wounds vs pins stays the same, so it doesn't matter which is worse.
The hero shot or hero hole is a good bit of fluff. Keep in mind that a pin is generally a near miss that forces you to go to ground. A grazing shot or hero hole could have the same effect.
-
I always loved the fact that in LoS fire actions had fast resolution. I switched to LoS from GW and never looked back - all the ridiculous dice rolling just to have a figure be fine at the end of it all... ugh. So I would be leery of adding too much in this vein to slow down fire resolution, unless it is an optional rule that I'd be free to ignore but there for those who might like it.
However, I did enjoy the old 'penny token' wounding rules mentioned by Sergeant_Hastp elsewhere. Perhaps a workable variation would be to limit it to a function of leadership/hero points as suggested by SW, and also only possible to make the roll if the exact kill# is rolled. Perhaps it should cost 2 leadership to perform? I'd just hate to see it get silly or seriously impact the speed of the game.
Also, for clarity's sake - are we strictly talking about Planetstorm for this pinning/wounding concept? AFAIK, pinning is not in the indoor rules, is the intention there to bring it in?
-
Indoors, pinning has no application and wounding will remain optional.
Outdoors we need pinning but not wounding, but I wanted to figure a way of incorporating both.
From the discussion it appears that the odds of implementing the draft kill, pin, wound rules I posted in the media gallery is becoming vanishingly small. What I liked about it was that it gave more richness to variations in terrain and weaponry while still keeping the basic d6 for firing.
-
Sounds more like a good optional rule to include in 3e.
:)
Dave Chase
-
There are people who will enjoy the option of more detailed wounding rules. I'm not one of those people, so I'm sneakily using the word optional a lot optional in order to covertly influence optional Clark's decision making process..... optional.
-
"These are not the core rules you are looking for."
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Hjb6y0p-zso/TaB02SWoVJI/AAAAAAAAAQc/pEZx6oSUu7I/s1600/ObiWanMindTrick.jpg)
-
Once again I will lobby the benefits for the system I (we) used as discussed;
NO extra dice rolls. (except to determine the type of wound, in the case of wounding)
Players have control of when it gets used. Offensively or defensively as desired. Maybe not 'realistic' but more 'cinematic;' in that the ones that are likely to get pinned or wounded are the important figures that matter. Does anyone really care that much if gremlin #32 off by himself at the side of the board gets 1 less movement point? Maybe..maybe not. Chances are, marking and tracking that wound would me more trouble than its worth. But if you hit my only assault pioneer on the exact number required, then I am surely going to use up one of my tokens to give him a chance to keep doing his job.
Being able to purchase a couple more, gives you a way to burn up a few UPV and get you a little closer to your opponent's UPV total for a more even balance.
Perhaps this is better as a wounding-only mechanic, and adopt a more 'realistic' method for pinning. If I recall correctly we only used this token system for wounding.
We also had stats for medic characters if I recall. I remember paining up a UNE Medic.
-
Does anyone really care that much if gremlin #32 off by himself at the side of the board gets 1 less movement point? Maybe..maybe not.
Hey, quit pickin' on my gremlin swarms already! LoL - *I* care about gremlin#32!!!
-
Well...I suppose if he was important enough to shoot at...he was cared about at least a little...but it'd not his movement points that are worrisome. lol.
-
I like the idea, but only on exact rolls, or perhaps a 'natural 6,' likening it to a 'critical' in most other system's parlance.
Having to constantly flip through hit charts is what killed the Rolemaster pen and paper system for a friend and me. We not-so-affectionately call it 'Chartmaster' ;D
-
I hate charts.
-
I and many gamers LOVE charts and detail and crunch. That's whats wonderful about the spectrum of gamers - you have Speed Demons who want to roll a handful of dice and resolve everything immediately. You have your chess players who analyze every unit profile and tactic and then you have the PHD guys who want to know what manufacturing plant made those Forcewall Grenades. Instead of saying "hate it" I think "I don't normally like to play that way but I think xyz would be a great option.
The goal is to tailor the game to give all the player types OPTIONS. In the gaming world, if you don't continue to release new options, new units, new expansions your game dies no matter what level of tactical brilliance it may offer.
For example. I (like a million other gamers) am building my own set of rules
Base Rules: Alternating Actions based on initiative with 3 actions per round
Advanced Rules: Alternating Actions with reactions (out of sequence reactions called Counters)
Option rules: Alternating Actions with Counters and Heroic Actions (Counters that cant be countered except by another Heroic Action)
My group has been play-testing it a lot in the last 6 months and some HATE heroic actions but provide excellent input, about why they hate it. Others love it and provide great feedback on why they like it. Its great for me because I can take information from both sides and try to find that common ground. Perhaps heroic is ONLY optional. Perhaps its critical to turning the tide in games, saving your ass or just crushing your opponent. Perhaps it belongs in an RPG only :) In the end input from all sides makes the game better...
-
To be constructive: I work a lot and I have kids, and when I get some games in it'll be because I have some friends visiting and it's kinda a mini-con. Breaking play to check charts chews up time, and getting interrupted partway through a multi-part resolution is more disruptive than getting interrupted in a simple resolution, especially if the multi-part imposes a high cost in terms of working memory. At a personal/social level, if a game looks too complex to me, no-one I know will like it; relative to everyone I know, I'm the one who loves crunch (not always the same as complex resolution IMO).
I am fully in favour of modular, optional complexity.
-
I agree with you on the simple=fast and doesn't get bogged down approach. Especially with new players, complex rules shut them down pretty fast, and I am not evan talking Rolemaster levels :D
I just want to make sure that any optional rules get as much scrutiny as the core rules.
-
MageKnight, HeroClix, Halo Clix, now those are simple rules. :)
Dave Chase
-
Too big a buy-in.
-
We tried this method this weekend for wounds in L0S
Created an "effect die" like Dave Chase suggested. Its less granular than the Wound Table but easy to remember. I also made Red Cross Tokens in MS Word with -1/-2 and OoA
If the Roll was exact
1 - No effect (Armor, Dud, Luck)
2-3 Light Wound -1 Fire -1 MP
4-5 Severe Wound -2 Fire, -2 MP
6 Medic! Out of Action (OoA) Model is down for the battle but not killed.
Hero Points|leadership could be used to reduce effect score by 1, but no more than one point could be used in this manner. "Watch yer Ass" seemed like a good leadership action...
Observations
We tried Dave Chases idea to roll the effect dice "at the same time." This resulted in a problem for High ROF attacks -Its a LOT of dice, especially with autofire. Multiple dice had to be thrown separately or special combos of colors had to be identified. It was actually faster to resolve the attack, determine if there were any exacts hits and then throw the effect dice.
Tracking Wounds-Some used mini red dice for the modifiers, my tokens were paper and a pain since they were so light - some just marked their unit sheet. We only had about 5 out of 23 models the entire game who suffered from wounds so it wasn't a major time consumer.
Wounding became a point of discussion for the medic model (which someone mentioned here as well) Thoughts were that a medic in an adjacent square could reduce the level of the effect die by one by expending a fire action.
It was faster than wound table and easy to remember.
We tried some Planetstorm with some a few figures, we will do a larger battle next week.
1-2 Pin
3-4 Pin and Light Wound -1 Fire -1 MP
5-6 Pin and Severe Wound -2 Fire, -2 MP
Since pinning is part of the Planetstorm rules I removed the no effect option and the OoA option. Essentially if you don't Kill you will Pin at minimum and wound to some degree 66+% of the time. You can still use hero/leadership to convert a pin as normal or reduce wound effect die score
-
This isn't an objection, just a thought. My maths or my intuition might equally be way off the mark.
How did you handle multiple-kill figures? I'd be a bit peeved if my colossus suffered a "wound" incurring a -2 penalty rather than just losing 1 "kill".
Option one: only take "wounds" on the final kill, makes 2+kill figures slightly less durable, relatively, if you only look at the possibility that a 1-kill would avoid injury altogether on a 1.
Option two: take wounds on first "kill" means you could suffer a -2 where under vanilla rules you'd have no penalty.
Option three: take wounds on any "kill" means a 2-kill colossus or fiend could accumulate -4 in penalties and not be dead.
So, there's the question of balancing, relative to the previous balance of power for troopers versus fiends, the fact that fiends would either lose the opportunity to operate without penalty after taking one lethal hit, or lose the 1/6th of a bonus "life" that the "no effect" roll implies.
OTOH this is not something that you want to complicate with a heap of conditional rules.
-
Hey Object away.. :D
I agree stacking wound on multi wound units would suck. I think your option 1 is right inline with the rules as written. No "wounds" until the last one. I believe, In fact it makes makes them more durable (which I like) because that last Kill could be a light wound instead of an outright kill. We didn't use any 2 wound units in the game this week. I will add a couple for sure this weekend to see how it goes. I was actually surprised we didn't have a lot of wounds.
Page 37 " In the case of two kill figures the rules are not used until the figure has been reduced to a single kill"
I also dont know how much I like the "no effect" especially when its a high target number to begin with. If I get lucky and roll a 7 on that fiend, and unlucky enough to roll a one on the chart I dont do ANYTHING? It could be a little more tilted in the attackers favor.
1-2 Light Wound -1 Fire -1 MP
3-4 Severe Wound -2 Fire -2 MP
5-6 Kill
-
Keep in mind the LOS rule that limits the number of wounds per figure to one pluss leadership/hero points. So for most figs, a wound might be a temporary reprieve but the second time you score an exact kill they are toast because it doesn't matter if that is a wound or a kill, they are still out of action. In a way, this sort of balances high ROF/kill# weapons because multiple kills on the same target are useless when then is no wounding.