Legions of Steel Forum

Legions of Steel => General Discussion => Topic started by: smokingwreckage on July 29, 2012, 08:55:26 PM

Title: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on July 29, 2012, 08:55:26 PM
Rather than saying "OMG OMG Kickstarter you guys wow totally!!!!!!!"

Here's an example of a successful kickstarter roll-out on a miniature-by-miniature basis; essentially a similar campaign might do 2 things: find out who's still in the market for LOS minis, and give people a chance to back the resculpts they crave.

Everyone interested in this sort 'a thing should take a look at Reaper's kickstarter.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-an-evolution-of-gaming-min (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-an-evolution-of-gaming-min)

Of course, Reaper are persona non grata with some, and also they're a freakin' juggernaut, but I thought the example might be useful.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on August 01, 2012, 01:27:50 AM
I have been following Kickstarters very closely. I recently participated in the Sedition Wars one.

I think its a great idea for revivals, startups(of course). Oger, several zombie board games and some other miniatures lines are coming out.

Taking a lot of notes on the ones that break 500K or more.

I may even take a stab at it. I have had a game rolling around in my head, a little capital of my own...it may be worth a shot to get some additional funding.

We havent seen too much activity on the forum, so not even sure what the status of LOS 2.0
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on August 01, 2012, 10:28:14 AM
Well I am still here.

Yes, if done properly a kickstarter program could make lots, (Traveller RPG just broke some records last month on it).


Just make sure that you can actually accomplish what you promise if the money is taken.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Kindred on August 01, 2012, 11:25:24 AM
oh yes, indeed... a good, FIRM business plan should be required, if you opt to use KickStarter. I've contributed to several (mostly writers, a few games).
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on August 01, 2012, 07:17:40 PM
This is definitely a great tool to use... I follow a musician (Amanda Palmer) who broke her contract with her record label a few years ago. This summer she used kickstarter to try and fund her new album... She was aiming for $100,000 and ended up clearing $1,000,000!!!! She had a lot of really awesome bonus packages for a large number of different donation levels, and it all worked really well (I think there was one incentive for a donation of $5000, she promised to perform in your house!!!!)

The biggest problem I see with it is how to get the word of mouth out for it... There may be a certain amount of traffic from people browsing the site looking for something cool to help out with, but the most successful projects are probably by people who already have a name for themselves... LoS used to have that but it needs a big jolt from a defibrillator to get the heartbeat pounding again...

I've been pretty silent of late, but I still check in here regularly. Last time I talked to Clark, he was supposed to be coming back to Canada in July. Don't know if he did or not though.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on August 01, 2012, 10:01:53 PM
Just a side note: I find this thread slightly amusing being positive (which is a good thing :) )

when this one was not given such a positive thought. ;)

http://los.turtleshellprod.com/index.php?topic=103.msg986#msg986 (http://los.turtleshellprod.com/index.php?topic=103.msg986#msg986)

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on August 02, 2012, 10:03:54 AM
Well, not SUPER positive on your suggestion, Dave, but that's just due to my awesome pitch. I'm just a playa, you know?

PS: I think I misspelled "farmer" just now.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on August 02, 2012, 10:27:20 AM
It's a pretty clever kickstarter by Reaper. It's clear the original goal was deliberately very low. The pledge that they want you to take is $100 and for that you get a reasonable little swag of plastics, one collector's piece, and a few little nice benefits, you know, forum badge, hat. They "pay" you out of stock they have, production they have, and it's an OK deal that gets a bit better at the first stretch. People like me buy in. Thereafter the deal keeps getting sweeter as later "stretch" goals are met. This works for word of mouth, builds some buzz, and also works in rational-player market theory: as more models are included, you pull in people to whom models are worth less.


The trick is they get their re-tool money now, and then tool up to give you new minis at-cost (to them), effectively making this a zero interest loan that they repay "in-kind" ie., with product, (that you value it, more-or-less, at retail is another bonus to them). I am pretty confident this is how they did the numbers for this... based only on my own wild guesses. If I were in their business, I would copy the hell  out of the basic idea: loan, zero interest, paid in product.

And, every second stretch goal amounts to "Hey, people who lent us $100, lend us another $10 and we'll pay you back in more and very awesome product! C'mon. Ten bucks!"
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on August 03, 2012, 05:39:32 PM
Yeah..you need a business plan, a release schedule with product on hand to match demand, art, website, demo boards, marketing and team of people willing to do work for not a lot of return.

And most importantly you need a product people can get behind.

Ogre - lots of fans, lots of legacy players. recognized game and creator, very popular. The kickstarter wasn't particularly complex but the stretch goals improved on the overall presentation of the game. 925k

Sedition Wars -recognized sculptor, new game line, NICE looking minis. Clever and well communicated campaign taking over 2 years to get off the ground. Stretch Goals were incredible and wound up being like 30 extra minis. 975K

For something like LOS..what would be the process?
Is it new mini line? Updating the old?
Old Minis re-released
New Rules?
What are stretch goals - custom art is nice. Customer Figure designed in conjunction with Clark is nicer.
New Race?
New Tile Art?

The other thing you have to do is assess the audience. Are there enough old school L0S'ers to drive this - not sure. Is there a chance that new players could be recruited -absolutely.

Just rambling on here...


My thoughts would be
New UNE Commandos -  Commandos - modular so you can create standard troopers, plasma gunners etc. Add a Behemoth...
New LOS Machine - 2-3 Nightmare Variants or a single variant with modular weapons would be ideal, 1 Fiend again with modular weaponry
New Tiles - more theme based like an actual base or space station
Updated Rules

Let the community you establish drive the next race to be updated, terrain packs, etc.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on August 05, 2012, 07:58:53 AM
I think something like that, scoutz. I'd get the UNE commandos and weapons CAD modelled. First goal would be to get the blaster and PP redone. Stretch would be NCO (a new pose on the blaster, in essence. Already 3D modelled) and then the various heavy weapons. I'd want maybe new fiends as buy-in options at stretch goals. Initially I'd leave the nightmares and the aliens as-is.

This would be beside print on demand original rules. Any heavies that got unlocked in the KS would also get a downloadable one-sheet with rules and art for that figure.

Assuming success, I'd do a KS for the boxed set.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on August 07, 2012, 03:07:58 AM
How about getting a big name well known sculptor/studio to agree to do new sculpts prior to starting up but dependant on KS? Who-ever that ends up being would surely bring some strong word of mouth & advertising muscle to bear on getting the word out about an imminent LoS return...

I'd like to see a KS campaign fund a new set of rules (on demand printing & downloads), & all new basic figures for sure. I really like the idea of making modular commando figures that can use a couple of leg & torso config's plus multiple interchangeable arms / weapons. New sculpts for fiends & nightmares ( a couple of NM poses would be great). New maps would also be awesome, not just printable sheets but full cardboard.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on August 07, 2012, 09:38:29 AM
Did you see the Sedition Wars KS? Take a look. What you described is almost exactly what they did. I wont play the game, but I jumped onboard. I will most likely convert models for use in LOS.


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/sedition-wars-battle-for-alabaster (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/sedition-wars-battle-for-alabaster)

Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on August 08, 2012, 09:01:48 AM
Yeah I came across that later. The miniatures line had been around a little while, putting up some stunning artwork and models, but the KS went crazy, clocked in at over $1 million. I do think having some top-notch art is a major step, and probably expensive. Studio McVey had name recognition and some pretty major backing in Cool Mini Or Not, too, and of course Reaper is a freaking leviathan.

Nevertheless, I think you could raise enough from old players to get some sweet, modern sculpts for the UNE, who, lets face it, need it most badly. They and the machines represent the safest bet because they're the iconic Goodies and Baddies of the LOS universe and also you can re-do just the Commandos, PP Commandos, Nightmares and the Mk1 to recreate the legendary Black Box. That means you can lavish some attention on them and still have heaps of room to bring in all their brilliant and diverse additional units one-by-one.

Assuming it could be done in metal, I'd later want to look into plastic or resin for the Nightmares and basic PI troopers.

Then Inferno :P
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on August 09, 2012, 11:29:34 PM
Are you joking about Inferno?
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on August 12, 2012, 01:55:17 AM
I seem to remember reading that Inferno sold really well, and what spiked Global Games was tooling up for a Star Wars game and then having the license-holder lose the license, thus torpedoing the entire thing.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on August 13, 2012, 12:05:37 AM
I remember the miniatures selling very well, but dont recall a lot of playing of the game. Out of the 2-3 groups in my area, people were buying them for RPGs.

I still have several of them for my Dark Elf forces for D&D games I run
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: TheTraitorJacobson on August 28, 2012, 07:04:44 AM
I seem to remember reading that Inferno sold really well, and what spiked Global Games was tooling up for a Star Wars game and then having the license-holder lose the license, thus torpedoing the entire thing.

It was mentioned somewhere here that the Inferno return policy, where stores could return product at no cost, was a disaster that turned the company into a zombie like state.  The West End Bankruptcy was the double tap.

I would love to support a Kickstarter for LOS.  Without looking at production costs,  $75 for a traditional box set, maybe $35 for a small set akin to the old "Demo Machine" that they released around '94?  Twenty bucks nets a tshirt or some poster map of one of the scenarios and makes you eligible to buy extras. 

And once we hit the $1 million stretch goal, everyone pledging $100 or more gets an added UNE Fast Attack Vehicle, $2 million a unit of Infranite Jet Bikes, $3 million an Archfiend, $4 million UNE Superfortress in Resin. and $5 million is a revival of the X Game.

Okay, skip the $5 million goal...
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on August 31, 2012, 10:18:29 PM
$100 gets you a box with UNE blasters and G1 Nightmares. Stretch goals: NCOs, heavy weapons, fiends. The FAV would be an unlocked buy option.

I wonder about trying to kickstart the vehicles in urethane, as per this:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamforge-games/something-wicked-this-way-comes-crusader-plastic-m (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamforge-games/something-wicked-this-way-comes-crusader-plastic-m)
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: rcbecker1 on October 10, 2012, 08:55:53 PM
I agree Kickstarter would be the way to start up the 3.0 edititon.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: eypyeash on February 08, 2013, 06:31:04 AM
Warning: This post is largely fueled by pure personal opinion and no business savvy:

Hell, there's all that fervor out there about Space Hulk still, high demand for a reprint of the 3rd edition. I was introduced to Legions of Steel by a buddy who, while a Space Hulk fan, also liked doing more than having a GM spawn genestealers while the "good guys" got to make all the relevent tactical decisions. You can definitely hit that sweet spot of the market. How many copies did they release? And it completely sold out how quickly? But a big draw was the new miniatures, fancier tiles, redesigned rules back to the original 1st edition style in many aspects. It was solid.

People are miniatures snobs. CAD has made it cost effective to design and release huge amounts of very detailed figures in a short turnaround, so that's a complete must - start with the basic models, the UNE troops with blaster and plasma projector and the Nightmares/Fiends. Hell, give all the weapons options for both sets from the get-go. It'd be a good time. Increase the thickness of the card stock, redesign the tile images (but DON'T redesign everything interlocking with everything!), get some new art. 50 images or so... that's what, maybe 5000 for high-end digital art?

On the miniatures, I don't understand why everyone sticks with the 25mm square on their dungeons. Go for 30. Modellers love those round lips. I understand every square being 5mm larger adds up over a map, but it seems like it'd be worth it at the end.

I need to drop some redesign sketches onto the forum here. Been thinking about CADing them myself as a learning experience, but outside opinions are always a good thing.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on February 08, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
I concur that miniatures are still popular. Look at Mongoose in the last several months.

They are releasing 2 with 2 more on the way this year miniature games and both have been fueled (started) using Kickstarter.

With the rules being free pdf, or pay for a hardbound.

As for 30mm vs 25mm, I want miniatures and the size does not matter that much to me.

I do greatly prefer 25mm and up to 15mm because I want detail. 15mm is good for large armies, but I don't play much of those any more.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: eypyeash on February 08, 2013, 06:03:39 PM
I meant more the base size being 30mm. Ha. 28mm figures, or 32mm heroic or whatever they say. Straight 28mm would be better if people want to stick with some of their original figures before future releases.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on February 09, 2013, 03:57:45 PM
I meant more the base size being 30mm. Ha. 28mm figures, or 32mm heroic or whatever they say. Straight 28mm would be better if people want to stick with some of their original figures before future releases.

Yes, you did. Sorry about that, I didn't catch that the first time reading it. :)

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on February 24, 2013, 01:01:03 AM
Missed most of the discussion on this...been offline for a while dealing with a new baby and a crazy work schedule. Unfortunately, the only thing that's given me the time to post is messing up my back badly enough to lay me out flat for a few weeks. Saw this thread and really wanted to jump in.

A while back I started pinging Clark on here with some PMs. The reason is that I noticed in one of the forum threads that the original masters for the Legions of Steel/Planetstorm minis were still in existence, and owned by Marco. My intent was to try and cook up a deal with Clark/Marco where I would fund the cost of creating new moulds for the standard miniatures (Commando with Blaster, G1 Nightmare and Mk I Assault Fiend), and in return I would want access to several of the other masters to have new moulds made for some of the remaining miniatures I was still interested in that have become impossible to find.

My reasons for this (beyond the obvious of obtaining miniatures which can't be found) were somewhat altruistic: I'd like others to be able to get the miniatures and play the game. I think LoS was (and is) a very good minis game. It may need some polish, but, at its core, it's a rock solid system. Coupled with that is the selfish (if a bit pie-in-the-sky) idea that more people playing means better chances of finding willing players.

During this process I realised that Clark also still had or had access to the original die for the LoS tiles. This got the gears turning in my head, as I have access to a die press. I have also scanned the unpunched tilesets, and I had been intending to take those scans into GIMP (an open-source Photoshop-type software) and colour correct the differing tilesets (Black Box/Blue Box/Template Pack 1 are a different hue than Advanced Rules/Junction Point/Template Packs 2-5) so I could reprint them for myself. Suddenly, the idea of re-printing the Black Box game didn't seem so far-fetched.

Now, let me be clear: I am not so misty-eyed with nostalgia that I think a direct re-print of the game could be commercially successful! There have been massive changes in the boardgaming industry since Global Games folded, and the production values of modern boardgames (and miniature games, for that matter) have gone through the roof in the interim. However, if interest in the game could be re-kindled, then perhaps some sort of true re-launch could be feasible. This is where several seemingly unrelated but very interesting developments come in.

The first of these is Kickstarter. Now, this has already been discussed by several people in this very thread, and I don't want to get into it too deeply just yet, but, suffice it to say that this is an obvious vehicle for the relaunch of a game like this. There are a number of challenges involved with that, the first of which is that Kickstarter cannot operate in Canada, where I believe Clark is located. Another potential problem is simply the question of how munch brand recognition LoS still carries; successful Kickstarter campaigns rely on reputation (at some level) for their success (Ogre still had a dedicated following; Sedition Wars had McVey's name which is well know in the miniatures industry; Reaper is an existing, successful company). Finally, a campaign that looks for all of its capital (e.g. has no seed money) from the Kickstater itself appears far riskier than one that simply wants money to pretty itself up. That perceived risk (whether due to reputation or lack of financial backing) heavily affects peoples' decisions to back Kickstarter campaigns.

This segues nicely into the failed Kickstarter for Vor: the Maelstrom 2.0: the original Vor was another tabletop miniatures wargame, from the now defunct FASA Corporation, and it was aimed directly at GW's blackened corporate heart. It was also a better game (mechanically speaking) than 40k (once again, my opinion, but also shared by an awful lot of people familiar with both). The original creator of Vor (Mike "Skuzzy" Nielsen, coincidentally a Canadian like Clark), who still held the rights to it, opened his own website and slowly gathered the remains of the hardcore Vor fanbase around him. After a year or more of ongoing discussions, he announced that he would be running a Kickstarter to fund the production of Vor 2.0, and there was much rejoicing! What this meant was that he would write the new Vor 2.0 Rulebook, and possibly stretch that into the various Forcebooks. All he needed was $25,000 for cool new art (there are still miniatures in production for the game from IronWind Metals). Let me run that by you again: he wanted $25,000 for a new rulebook for which noone had seen a manuscript, and he had no previous Kickstarter (or other) successes. Needless to say, the campaign flopped. Now, I'm not saying that $25,000 was necessarily too much money for all the art needed in a new book of the scope proposed; I haven't priced out artwork like that, and have really no idea. The problem was that Mike had no current reputation for success on a project like this, had nothing showing what work had been done thus far, and in the end was relying entirely on the nostalgia of gamers that already knew the original game. As an aside, he also badly mismanaged his website, with many people reporting problems joining and posting, along with dropping off for long periods of time. The site has now been nothing but an "under construction" landing page for more than a couple years, and I've seen even the most diehard fans admit on other sites that the game is well and truly dead. This is an object lesson on what not to do for Legions of Steel. Remember: if you can't be a good example, you can always be a terrible warning!

The next seemingly unrelated event was the release of Sedition Wars: Battle for Alabaster via Kickstarter. For those of you who don't know what a quick Google can tell you, SW:BforA is a game in the mould of Space Hulk or Legions of Steel, with two assymetric forces battling it out through various missions in a sci-fi dungeon. The Kickstarter was hugely successful, in no small part due to Mike McVey being attached to (and championing) the project as a sculptor. As it turns out, the game itself kinda sucks (my opinion, but increasingly shared by others), but boy! Are those minis cool, or what? Regardless, I believe that the success of this Kickstarter shows that there is still a strong desire amongst boardgamers for something that scratches a Space Hulk kind of an itch. Games like Incursion and Earth Reborn are attempting to capitalize on that.

Number three (or is it four, counting Vor?) of my list of unrelateds happened while I was spending a few minutes in a bookstore, trying to kill some time. I walked through the gaming section (read: past the single gaming shelf) thinking I'd conduct a little research on which RPGs actually get sold in big chain bookstores these days. What instead caught my eye was a beautiful little hardcover, gorgeously produced, titled Tomorrow's War. Once again, for those that can't work a search engine, it's a tabletop miniatures wargame. I browsed through the book for five or so minutes before deciding to head straight for the cash register with it in hand. This is the first gaming impulse buy I have made in a very, very long time. The proliferation of online information sources now means that it's never actually necessary to buy any game without knowing pretty much everything there is to know about it in advance. In this case it was quite lucky for Osprey books that their graphic design worked; online reviews (read after I got it home) that turned up when I decided to see if there was much of a player base tear the book to shreds. Some of that is well-deserved, as the rulebook does a terrible job of presenting the rules - had I read the reviews first, I wouldn't have bought it - but underneath the mess is a very good game. The point to this particular rambling anecdote is twofold: first, graphic presentation is crucial, and some of that means adapting to the different (from when LoS was released) aesthetics of the day, as that can make all the difference between a purchase and an indifferent shrug; second, making sure there's nothing as silly as rampant typos, a missing index, or poorly laid-out rules helps minimize the odds of scathing reviews that kill the game's chances before it can get a toehold. What does all this have to do with Legions of Steel? Tomorrow's War bears more than a passing similarity to Stargrunt II, a more than 15 year-old game.

 The last two things I'm going to string together, as they both have to do with production of miniatures. One was already mentioned in another thread (see here (http://los.turtleshellprod.com/index.php?topic=294.0)), and that's a new plastic that can be spin-cast, and apparently with some pretty funky undercuts (the significance of which is too complicated to explain in detail). Here's the background: metal miniatures for gaming are made by various casting processes, mostly spin-casting. The advantage to spin-casting and metal miniatures are that the startup costs are very small (in the hundreds of dollars per miniature). The major disadvantages are that production is much slower, vastly more expensive per part (the larger the production run the worse this gets), and cannot hold as much detail on the miniature. Plastic miniatures, on the other hand, are typically moulded in some type of runner mould. The advantages here are many: speed of production (once the mould runs), amount of detail possible on the model, ease of assembly, and ridiculously low cost per part (that only gets better the higher the production run). The disadvantage is mostly about one thing: the capital outlay to build and run the mould are enourmous in comparison, as much as a couple orders of magnitude higher. Being able to do this could allow new, improved plastic miniatures to be made for the game without the massive capital requirement that plastic moulds normally require. Similarly, a recent announcement that Mutant Chronicles has been picked up and a new Kickstarter launched revealed that they are using very new versions of rapid prototyping machines to create the miniatures (unless the Kickstarter raises enough funds for plastic molds to be made). Previously this wasn't feasible, as the plastic 3D prototyping machines that were affordable (you could get a Dimension model the size of a stove that would sit in your office for $30,000 even 8 years ago) couldn't produce the detail required for 25mm figures. They were basically 3-axis hot glue guns, and prototypes had a ridged appearance, as they were built in layers (which is what all rapid prototyping does). The images shown of the early miniature builds for Mutant Chronicles show none of this, and look amazing for prototyped components. If this is on the level, it's a watershed moment for 3D printing, and potentially opens up another avenue for getting the (new) miniatures into production.

Okay, this post has turned into a novel, so I'll string all this together and lay out where I'm going in another post later.






Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Warchariot on February 24, 2013, 10:19:55 AM
All of your points are well taken. I read the other posts a couple of weeks ago, so forgive me if I repeat any points already made.

First, Vor Kickstarter wasn’t pushed on the obvious sites as this is the first I heard of them doing a kickstarter. I check TMP and Tabletop News at least five times a week and have for years, didn’t see it there.

Second, Kickstarter is a misnomer; it real isn’t about kickstarting a project as the failed Beyond the Gates of Antares shows. It doesn’t matter how big your name is, if you don’t have an almost finished produce to show, the kickstarter will flop. It also didn’t help that they wanted a huge amount of money for a game that was a year or more away.

Finally, you need lots of rewards and stretch goals to build the excitement and keep people adding to their pledge. I’m supporting a couple of kickstarters right now. The Hell Dorado: Inferno Expansion only has 300 backers (on Feb 24th @ 7:30am MST) yet has over $35,000. This means the average pledge is about $120. If you just want the new book and cards, plus a new fig, you only need to pledge $50. I’m in at the $100 level because I can trade stuff in from that level for new stuff which may or may not unlock. I’m willing to take the chance because of what I see and what has already been released. I’m also watching Mutant Chronicles as a game I played back in the LOS days. I haven’t jumped in because I don’t like the computer gen figs. I want to see real ready for production figs that look like what they are showing.

I know I said finally already, but one last point. The kickstarters I have backed are ones where all the above is true, and the owner is on the site a lot. They answer comments continual and up-date ASAP after a goal is reached. I checked The Hell Dorado site just as it went over 35,000 and got an update while I was watching the site! Now that is showing interest in your kickstarter. If LOS does a kickstarter, it must be ready to go, or this will truly kill the game.   
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on February 24, 2013, 11:19:20 AM
I largely agree with most of what you've said here, but I'll speak to a few specific points if you don't mind me fisking your post...

First, Vor Kickstarter wasn’t pushed on the obvious sites as this is the first I heard of them doing a kickstarter. I check TMP and Tabletop News at least five times a week and have for years, didn’t see it there.
It was "announced" there, if you can call it that, by which I mean it was mentioned it in the Sci-Fi forums. One can debate whether it was the lack of exposure the Kickstarter had (although it was a couple years ago, so that might be why you missed it) or lack of manuscript that killed it, but even with far more exposure I suspect it would have failed because of the latter; Mike was simply asking people to give him $25,000 with a vague promise of eventually delivering something.
Second, Kickstarter is a misnomer; it real isn’t about kickstarting a project...<snip>...It doesn’t matter how big your name is, if you don’t have an almost finished produce to show, the kickstarter will flop.
Agreed, and, again, I think this was the real problem with the Vor 2.0 Kickstarter.
Finally, you need lots of rewards and stretch goals to build the excitement and keep people adding to their pledge.
Agreed. This was another major problem with the Vor effort. There was minimal incentive for people to pledge more. Sure, you could get varying levels of your name in the book, or a planet named after you, or a character...but really, who cares? These things are neat, but ephemeral. You want people to throw money at you, offer them something tangible.

I’m also watching Mutant Chronicles as a game I played back in the LOS days. I haven’t jumped in because I don’t like the computer gen figs. I want to see real ready for production figs that look like what they are showing.
Have a look at the kickstarter page, there are pictures there of physical production figures.

The kickstarters I have backed are ones where all the above is true, and the owner is on the site a lot. They answer comments continual and up-date ASAP after a goal is reached. I checked The Hell Dorado site just as it went over 35,000 and got an update while I was watching the site! Now that is showing interest in your kickstarter.
Yeah, this can be a real problem. I don't mean to call Clark out here, as I have no idea what's going on in his life. But if you actually want a project to get anywhere, there needs to be someone handling the day-to-day, hands-on community involvement. That's not to say it needs to be Clark himself, but if any LoS project eventually gets serious, someone will need to flll that role. One of the reasons I've been off the site for so long (well before the new baby) was the fact that I felt my posting efforts were simply falling into a black hole, and I was getting little or nothing back. That kind of thing kills a community.

If LOS does a kickstarter, it must be ready to go, or this will truly kill the game.
I don't totally agree with this. It doesn't need to be totally ready to go, but there needs to be enough real work already done that it looks like more than just smoke and mirrors. Anyway, great points you've raised.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Warchariot on February 24, 2013, 12:11:47 PM
Thanks for your feedback. In regards to...

Quote
Have a look at the kickstarter page, there are pictures there of physical production figures.

You're right, I just want to see more figs that look done. I'm glad they are getting input from comments and changing the look of some figs, but this makes me wonder how long I would have to wait to see them in my hands.

I do think if LoS started a Kickstarter that failed, it would kill any chance of restarting the game short of someone else buying it up. It sounds like that is what happened to Vor 2.0, they started to ask for money before they were ready with a produce someone could hold in the next few months.

Good chatting ;)
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on February 24, 2013, 12:42:49 PM
Well I do check daily but I did drop off the radar a bit spending 40 days in the hospital.

Then the Chemo kicks my butt every two weeks.

Back on topic,

Yes there needs to be some activity and focus on the game if it is going to be revived.

Mongoose is an example of a company that finally after much pushing from many of us, has jumped into the miniature games with kickstarter and are doing well.

Their Judge Dredd kickstarter took off wonderfully and the Rogue Trooper stalled a bit because everyone expected the same type of stretched goals like Judge Dredd.

They have adjusted a bit and seem to slowly gaining again.

I will help were I can, I am not fully up to date and off the top of my head rule knowledgable at this moment but I can definately help out some.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Warchariot on February 24, 2013, 03:07:17 PM
Good luck to you. my wife as had 25 rounds of chemo and a stem cell transplant over the last two years. It is a long hard road. She is just now growing some hair back.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on February 24, 2013, 04:27:05 PM
That's a long, hard road...best of luck to both you, Dave, and your wife, Larry!

Back on topic, I think Larry hit the nail on the head: a failed revival campaign can kill any chance of another attempt. It's important Clark keeps this in mind, as his initial attempt at a rule re-write derailed due to personal issues. I understand it, it totally happens, but it doesn't change the fact that this kind of thing buries games.

I will help were I can, I am not fully up to date and off the top of my head rule knowledgable at this moment but I can definately help out some.

Dave Chase
I think that much from a handful of people is all it takes to keep things moving. As for rules knowledge, I doubt that's such a concern unless you're actively playtesting, or are the line editor. As I discovered when I posted some battle reports a while back, my own memory of the rules was fairly flawed, even on major points like Initiative.
 :P







Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on February 24, 2013, 05:49:53 PM
Well, I can do more than I posted but it is up to Clark to get the ball going and decide whom he wants to help ramrod it.

Some of my background experience the game hobby world besides being a gamer at heart (primarily miniatures but RPG also along with board games)

Worked for WizKids, LLC (not WizKids, INC) wearing many hats which I freely allowed to be given to others as we hired more.

Fleer/SkyBox International, as Gaming Initiative and Entertainment Licensing.
Mainly Card games and entertainment trading cards.

Also some freelancing for some smaller companies to help promote some of their product and teach/train them on how to develop and use volunteer programs to promote their games/products.

If Clark wants, I would be willing to be coordinator if he points us in the direction he wants with a game plan.

But it will also take some committment from others, one just can't do it all by yourself and have it out in a timely manner.


Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on February 25, 2013, 01:17:53 AM
Well, I can do more than I posted but it is up to Clark to get the ball going and decide whom he wants to help ramrod it.
Agreed. He hasn't been on in about 6 months or so - hopefully he drops by again soon.

Some of my background experience the game hobby world besides being a gamer at heart (primarily miniatures but RPG also along with board games)

Worked for WizKids, LLC (not WizKids, INC) wearing many hats which I freely allowed to be given to others as we hired more.

Fleer/SkyBox International, as Gaming Initiative and Entertainment Licensing.
Mainly Card games and entertainment trading cards.

Also some freelancing for some smaller companies to help promote some of their product and teach/train them on how to develop and use volunteer programs to promote their games/products.
Whoah! That's actually a pretty impressive gaming industry resume. Personally, I've got a number of years experience in the toolmaking (primarily mouldmaking) industry. I'll lay out some of my other experience if the time comes when it appears relevant.

But it will also take some committment from others, one just can't do it all by yourself and have it out in a timely manner.
Well, hopefully some of what I explained in my first post in this thread, plus some of the time I've been spending doing stuff on this site makes it clear I'm fairly commited. I seem to recall a few other offers of peoples' talents in various threads around here. I have little doubt that Clark could avail himself of enough talent to at least get him rolling to a point where, should things go well, he would be able to acquire professional help.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on February 25, 2013, 08:10:01 AM
So, do you know much about 3D printers and the programs that they use?

I ask because of the following

It would be a way to get some of the potential models printed (3D) and shown on the kickstarter program

They could be part of the higher end give away of kickstarter donations (like giving people the greens of figures

And a long stretch of an idea, a few could be given as free (like .pdf) and a few others could be purchased (like .pdf) that people could print out as needed.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on February 26, 2013, 12:55:41 AM
Any word from Clark at all? Is he still in Asia? I love the game but the wait has been so long.

I have been working hard on my own game in the interim but I would be interested in helping in any way I can. (I would even entertain funding some models and art)

It sounds like Dave has lots of experience. I have only the experience I have gained in the last couple of years working on my own project. Taking something from concept art, to illustrations to 3D design and learning the process on the fly has been VERY challenging but also very rewarding.

Zbrush is the big 3D design platform. There are several forums on the topic, but you have to sift through all the 1/6 scale and 54mm stuff. The number of 30mm miniatures artists is starting to grow but I worked with several guys before I could find one that had the technical and artistic talent to meet my requirements. Most of the talented/experienced guys are already working for the Privateer Presses/GW's of the world...others are out there but their pricing is pretty high and workloads too heavy to take something like this on.

I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but its not enough to be able to generate the 3D image. You have to understand how the miniature is going to be printed, how its going to be broken apart, assembled etc. Usually the talent to create the miniature is different than the one to produce the masters and there needs to be a solid collaboration effort (and willingness to do so)
There are several companies that do 3D printing but not all 3D printers, materials and details are equal. Print resolution, master material, the detail of the actual miniature all are critical elements.

Then you have to get into the miniatures production side. Metal, Resin, Plastic? Spin Cast, Plastic Sprue..the list goes on and on.

and packaging, logo art, ...shipping

The effort to rework LOS and bring into the 2000's would be pretty huge and this screams for some pre-production and a kickstarter.

I have watched every one of the previously mentioned Kickstarters.  Sedition Wars (Backer) Monster, Dreamforge, Reaper and now Warzone. It will be interesting to see how they shake out. Sure they made a big entry splash but games live and die on new releases, advanced rules, new miniatures, new factions etc. However to REALLY be successful. People have to want to play your game...lots of them. Warhammer, Flames of War, GW- huge fanbase, lots of open wallets and desire for MORE. That requires gameplay and rulesets that need to be solid as well.

Just throwing some thoughts out there..love seeing some activity on this forum.








Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on February 27, 2013, 01:22:58 PM
Any word from Clark at all? Is he still in Asia? I love the game but the wait has been so long.
Nothing from Clark. As I mentioned earlier, there will need to be a remedy to this if he ever wants to keep things moving. That doesn't mean he needs to be on here all the time, but there needs to be someone who's the "face" of the community. If others from here become involved in work on re-starting the game, they'll obviously need a way to contact him as well.

It sounds like Dave has lots of experience. I have only the experience I have gained in the last couple of years working on my own project. Taking something from concept art, to illustrations to 3D design and learning the process on the fly has been VERY challenging but also very rewarding.
That's very useful experience! It's much more up to date than Clark's days at Global Games (no offence intended).

The number of 30mm miniatures artists is starting to grow but I worked with several guys before I could find one that had the technical and artistic talent to meet my requirements. Most of the talented/experienced guys are already working for the Privateer Presses/GW's of the world...others are out there but their pricing is pretty high and workloads too heavy to take something like this on.
I've been wondering about this. What kind of rates are we talking about for sculpting (CAD or physical) a 28mm man-sized figure?

I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but its not enough to be able to generate the 3D image. You have to understand how the miniature is going to be printed, how its going to be broken apart, assembled etc. Usually the talent to create the miniature is different than the one to produce the masters and there needs to be a solid collaboration effort (and willingness to do so)
This is getting into my realm of experience, and I'm fairly certain I can help.
There are several companies that do 3D printing but not all 3D printers, materials and details are equal. Print resolution, master material, the detail of the actual miniature all are critical elements.
I have experience with, and several contacts in, this industry. When the time comes I can start making some inquiries about what's possible and costs for prototypes.

Then you have to get into the miniatures production side. Metal, Resin, Plastic? Spin Cast, Plastic Sprue..the list goes on and on...and packaging, logo art, ...shipping
These are decisions that become important when you're considering a real re-launch and costing out a Kickstarter. First things first, is that even a road Clark wants to go down?

The effort to rework LOS and bring into the 2000's would be pretty huge and this screams for some pre-production and a kickstarter.
Absolutely!

Just throwing some thoughts out there..love seeing some activity on this forum.
Yeah, same here. Let's hope we can get something rolling from this.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on February 28, 2013, 05:36:34 PM
Regarding the Cost for a GOOD cad person.

1500-2500 for a Miniature.

What that includes
Good Concept Art

CAD

Extras - Accessories Like Grenades/Mines etc

For example
UNE Commando
4 Poses
2-3 Heads

Weapons
Grenades (if they aren't sculpted onto the T-Pose)


and then production masters and move to production of miniatures
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on February 28, 2013, 09:56:37 PM
Regarding the Cost for a GOOD cad person.

1500-2500 for a Miniature.

...

U.S. Dollars I assume?

And at that rate, I could have 10 years ago hired a good scupltor for less ofr a project run.

I don't know what a good and available sculptor would charge today.


But what I would like is bodies with arms with weapons and with out along with some extra weapons and accessories for each figure. Kind of what Games Workshop did in the beginning with Space Marine plastic miniatures.

Loved creating my own miniatures that way.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on February 28, 2013, 10:12:54 PM
Yeah..sorry US Dollars

I also had some traditional sculpting quoted. Ranged from 650-1600 depending on the sculptor. Most of these guys are booked solid for at least 12 months.


Totally agree..I want as modular as possible. For things like UNE and Machine -very doable with CAD
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on March 01, 2013, 12:24:37 AM
Well I know (personally) some very good sculptors that might have some time this year if we need to find some.

One is deep into Warzone minis and another is working on Mongoose figures.

I am not sure about the other 3, but I am sure that they are working some where.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on March 01, 2013, 10:08:00 AM
Well I know (personally) some very good sculptors that might have some time this year if we need to find some.

One is deep into Warzone minis and another is working on Mongoose figures.

I am not sure about the other 3, but I am sure that they are working some where.
Any idea what kind of money they charge?
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on March 01, 2013, 11:17:26 AM
I haven't asked in over a decade.

But if serious, I can find out.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on March 01, 2013, 11:32:00 AM
Depends on what you mean by serious!
 ;)
It's not like I'm going to contract somebody tomorrow, but I'd like to know current rates, as I am seriously considering possibilities.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on March 03, 2013, 03:23:30 AM
Um, how serious was the Global Games / Reaper vendetta? Because the Reaper forums are amongst the best places on the internet to ask around generally for various talents, skills, and so on. You could almost certainly pick up 3D sculptors, trad sculptors, and absolutely find some top notch painters.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on March 03, 2013, 08:49:58 AM
Um, how serious was the Global Games / Reaper vendetta?
:o
Don't really know anything about it. Can you elaborate?
Because the Reaper forums are amongst the best places on the internet to ask around generally for various talents, skills, and so on. You could almost certainly pick up 3D sculptors, trad sculptors, and absolutely find some top notch painters.
Okay, that's someplace we can potentially try then.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on March 03, 2013, 11:29:38 AM
I haven't gotten a reply yet from anyone. But I just sent out messages on Friday.

Will try a few more this coming week.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on March 04, 2013, 04:58:54 PM
Here is the reply I got from one of my scupltor friends who is busy with several miniatures games right now.

Quote
Standard US costs range around $400-$450 for greens around the 30mm range. 20 figures depending on the complexity, for a single sculptor would take around 8 to 10 weeks. Interchangable figures will always take a bit longer as you are having to cut parts off and make sure all fitting work.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on March 05, 2013, 04:03:17 PM
I had this massive, looong post to continue on from my original post in this thread, and then IE crashed. I normally have long posts copied to the clipboard for just such an event, but not this time.

 :o
Daaaamn yooooouu, Microsoft!

Gonna take me forever to rewrite it. Anyway, in the meantime, the rates you're mentioning are more along the lines of what I was expecting (from physical sculptors). The CAD quote seems high to me. I'm sure it's totally legit, I'm just quite surprised. For context, I currently work in the engineering software field, and it's what I can have CAD modeled for $2500 that makes that amount for figures seem high. And again, I'm sure it's probably just my ignorance of the field.

Regardless, thanks for making the inquiries, Dave. I'll try and finish re-writing my novella-of-a-post to move the conversation along.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on March 05, 2013, 06:17:10 PM
Well, I know that any sculpts we commission with out Clark's input might not be official but ...

Depending on what we want to do with them, I would  consider putting up some of the money to have them done.

Not a lot or all of it, not that right right now with my medical bills and no working at this time, but I do not see that being a permament issue.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on March 08, 2013, 05:01:15 PM
Well, I know that any sculpts we commission with out Clark's input might not be official but ...
Yeah, sadly, Clark is key to anything. I only say sadly because we haven't heard from him here in so long. I have another piece of contact info for him, and I'm going to try that over the weekend.

Depending on what we want to do with them, I would  consider putting up some of the money to have them done.

Not a lot or all of it, not that right right now with my medical bills and no working at this time, but I do not see that being a permament issue.
As I said earlier, I'm potentially willing to go in on something like this, too. My preference at the moment is the old official miniatures if I can get access to the ones I still want, followed by new official miniatures, followed by anything we do outside of that. I've still got my fingers crossed that we can get an official ball rolling.

A big question is, if there's an attempt to revive the game, should there be any effort made to get the original figures back into production? I know you have another thread around some of this stuff elsewhere, Dave, and I'll respond there, too. But I think this is a complicated question.

After a lot of thought, I've come to the conclusion that it may be worth doing in the interim before a Kickstarter. There are still people out there with interest in the game (as I write this there are 3 new members here that I'm currently talking to about selling them Black Boxes and miniatures), as well as "old-timers" that want to expand their collections; I was in that boat a few years ago. Having at least basic miniatures people can buy generates interest, and, particularly if we have access to the old masters, would probably sell enough to cover the costs of the moulds. I'm thinking primarily of the Commando, Commando with Plasma Projector, G1 Nightmare and Mk I Assault Fiend. Moreover, miniature gamers are not binary. Buying the old minis doesn't preclude them buying new, "improved" miniatures at some point in the future. I'd say more likely the opposite, with it being a good indiciation of willingness to buy any new miniatures.

Coupled with old miniatures, I think it would also help to have a single download of the game. I know some of the component parts are here, but I'm talking about a single download, expressly for people wanting to try it out. That's not currently possible (or perhaps "feasible" is a better word). While the rules and cardboard standups are in the media section, there are neither scenarios (no offense to the homebrew uploads), nor tilesets. I'm thinking of a package with the rules (Black Box, already here), figures (Cardboard standups, already here), scenarios (maybe the elimination scenario from the demo package and Quarterback sneak?), and maps for those scenarios (single image file as most printers can now print in pieces). Having that both here and a place like BoardGameGeek* could help generate a lot of traffic and build some momentum for an eventual Kickstarter.

EDIT: Just noticed that at some point Clark uploaded the Scenario book from the Black Box and I hadn't noticed; that's one less obstacle, although it could do with a better scan

Beyond the old minis, new minis would really need to be created for a re-release. Aesthetics have changed since the game was made, and visual quality of miniatures has made huge advancements since LoS was released. Having said that, I don't think the old figures were conceptually bad (quite the opposite).

Whether sculpting or CAD is used for new masters, the question of how to do the minis remains. Some have suggested multi-part plastic minis are the way to go. I'm not really convinced of that, for a couple reasons: the expense, and the ease of play. The expense is straightforward; multi-part miniatures are more expensive to make tooling for, no matter how they're manufactured, and plastic tooling is at least an order of magnitude more expensive than metal or resin (although the "Trollcast" stuff here (http://los.turtleshellprod.com/index.php?topic=294.0) might solve this) to have built. The ease of play thing is to do with having to assemble miniatures in order to play the game. I'm sure miniature gamers (which everyone here likely is) scoff at this being a problem, but don't underestimate the obstacle this presents to a more casual boardgamer. That more casual boardgamer is a market you do not want to alienate for something like this (in my opinion), and the original LoS was mindful of that with its Black Box. Single piece miniatures that can immediately be used are the way to go, in my opinion. You can always expand your line to more miniature gamer oriented stuff if you're initially successful.

I'll post some thoughts about other stuff like rulebook, tilesets, etc. later.


*BoardGameGeek is, to the best of my knowledge, far and away the largest boardgaming site on the web. There is already an entry there for Legions of Steel, which is how a number of members here found this site (I posted the link on BGG). Each game entry has a file section where a demo package could be hosted for download.











Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on March 26, 2013, 02:01:20 AM
This has turned into quite the thread since I've been away [and sorry about that, I love it here]!

Too much to reply to at 2am as I am trying to get myself off to bed... but I just wanted to say I'm still keen on being involved in the resurrection of the game! I have experience in graphic design & illustration that I could bring to bear on LoS [beyond the ad I did in 2011 for Clark]. I agree with the general idea that some degree of a facelift is needed in the art & figure department to get this going.

I think a kickstarter program is going to work best, and as some have said, especially if there is some legwork done ahead of time. Show potential backers that you've done at least some of the work, give them some solid teasers that will whet their appetites & fire their imaginations. Strong organization of the project development & open communication with fans is probably also key.

Bobloblah - I think you mentioned somewhere in here about getting in touch with Marco about the figure moulds... I met him once a long time ago, and actually just recently met someone who knows him through his affiliation with Rue Morgue. It may be possible for me to contact him eventually through this new contact. I'll keep you posted on that.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on March 29, 2013, 01:14:07 AM
After a lot of thought, I've come to the conclusion that it may be worth doing in the interim before a Kickstarter. There are still people out there with interest in the game (as I write this there are 3 new members here that I'm currently talking to about selling them Black Boxes and miniatures), as well as "old-timers" that want to expand their collections; I was in that boat a few years ago. -grendeljd


I think the market for the old miniatures would be limited to just a few new players and collectors. I am one person who may jump on board but my choices would be very selective. A project like this has to generate BUZZ..new players, a new energy...


I personally dont see the advantage to getting the old miniatures up and running. Just my opinion. Logistics of pulling them all together would be a nightmare..how old are they? Weren't some master molds destroyed/lost? Very few games successfully "re-launch" with the old look.

Focus energy and funding on a new UNE/Machine based "Black Box"

Metal or Resin - multi piece/modular. Plastic is nice but expensive as has been discussed.

UNE Modular Trooper
Behemoth

Machine Modular Nightmare
Mark I Fiend

New Hi Res Tiles with updated Art
New Doors that look like bulkheads, perhaps even some more stand up type terrain (modular wall sections for large rooms, terminals)
New Updated Rules


Keep the initial release tight and stock the pipeline/kickstarter with the expansions

Elite Machine Units
Elite UNE Units
Other Race Starter Kits
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on April 02, 2013, 11:14:39 PM
I don't have time to reply in detail to this at the moment, but I'm pretty sure your quote attribution to grendeljd is wrong; I said the part in red. Anyway, I'll get back to this soon.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on April 12, 2013, 03:35:14 AM
Yes it was wrong sorry!  :o

Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Wyatt on April 14, 2013, 07:25:47 PM
I have to agree with Scoutzout on this one, I think the focus should be on a black box release. One question though, has anyone actually priced out, or made inquires to release them in plastic. I'm aware that the initial start up cost is some what higher, but I think the cost has come down considerably and it might be worth inquiring about. I just recently ordered some 15mm matilda I (early WW2) tanks  as plastic kits, and was somewhat amazed that such a relatively obscure and not terribly popular model, was available as a plastic kit.  For such fundamental models, it my well prove very worth while. If you'd like I could make some inquires as to the costs of going this route?
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on April 26, 2013, 10:47:14 PM
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm)

Posted for 2 reasons

1) Proves the miniature games are still popular
2) that if done correctly (preproduction) that you can drive the orders by a lot.

And has anyone heard from Clarke.

I have tried everything but hiring a PI to contact him.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Scoutzout on April 27, 2013, 12:02:27 AM
Yeah..Kickstarter is sucking funds from my wallet left and right
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on May 09, 2013, 03:10:48 PM
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm)

Posted for 2 reasons

1) Proves the miniature games are still popular
2) that if done correctly (preproduction) that you can drive the orders by a lot.

And has anyone heard from Clarke.

I have tried everything but hiring a PI to contact him.

Dave Chase


I think you are absolutely right - if that game is gonna get funded, we can find a way to make it happen for LoS.

And your second point is both correct, & very difficult to achieve. I have been looking at Kickstarter a lot lately to try & figure out how to approach both LoS and another game I am currently developing with a partner. The Robotech game is both a good & bad example. Palladium has money to spend on pre-development & presence in the industry to attract the crowds to get the funding secured.

Most of the successful projects seem to have a lot of work done ahead of time, meaning they've somehow either payed people to do layouts/illustrations/packaging etc in advance, or have found someone willing to do the work on the promise of payment upon funding. If we can get LoS rolling, I would be a guy willing to do a lions share of the graphic design & illustration work in anticipation of payment upon a successfully funded Kickstarter program. Assuming anyone wants me to do that part of the job.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on May 09, 2013, 11:22:30 PM
grendeljd,
Part of my suggested plan is what you touched upon.

We have to wait for Clark because he owns the IP.

Another one to look at is DeadZone
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/deadzone-the-sci-fi-miniatures-board-game (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/deadzone-the-sci-fi-miniatures-board-game)

I am going into this one for the sculpts more than the rules.

Notice how they have broken down the addon's and squads.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Kindred on May 10, 2013, 10:10:33 AM
just as a note: I am involved with a convention (TempleCon) which is held in Rhode Island and has a huge, dedicated miniatures track.
WarHammer and War Machine/Hordes take up many spots, but there are a dozen or so other games running as well.

if we could get it started, crowd-funding and a location to demo the re-game would be primo.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on May 14, 2013, 02:55:13 PM
Something else I am curious about but don't know the answer to;

Once these games get successfully funded and produced, are they then mass produced for distribution, or do they only end up with enough funding to produce what gets ordered through Kickstarter? I would expect that the idea is to create a campaign that will allow you to afford mass production once you've secured enough funding. The Pledge packages are primarily designed around selling the product to each backer, and the more you pledge, the more product you get for your dollars. Even still this looks like it adds up to heavily overcharging backers compared to the retail value of what they will recieve...
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on May 14, 2013, 02:59:45 PM
just as a note: I am involved with a convention (TempleCon) which is held in Rhode Island and has a huge, dedicated miniatures track.
WarHammer and War Machine/Hordes take up many spots, but there are a dozen or so other games running as well.

if we could get it started, crowd-funding and a location to demo the re-game would be primo.
Yeah, it would be a smart part of the plan to try to get at least a rough '3rd edition' of the rules out, and then have people with enough original mini's to run LoS at as many gaming Con's [big or small] as possible. This would help spread awareness & interest in the game, and perhaps a solid kickstarter campaign could then spin out of that.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on May 14, 2013, 06:55:41 PM
Most of the games that I have seen on Kickstarter is the start up cost to produce a run.

Most are making more copies than the number of backers.

I can not say that for all of them just the dozen or so that I have looked at.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on May 17, 2013, 06:09:43 PM
From what I've seen and discussed with people who've done Kickstarters, backers are usually getting a cheaper than retail price on the product itself, but may well be paying a premium well over production costs for add-ons. The add-ons are a carrot to get people to throw money at you for which you have very little over-head, hence those dollars are profit, or funneled towards primary production. The main bulk of the pledges (non-add-on) are effectively a loan or advance that allows you to set up production, and is then repaid in product (instead of money). This means that as long as you're charging backers more than your costs of production (i.e. ongoing production costs, not initial capital outlay), you are still making money. You can then pay off the initial capital outlay with profits from ongoing sales, or additional funds from the Kickstarter (e.g. add-ons, pricing of pledge-levels above production-cost minimums, etc.).

I am both very tired, and very sick with a cold at the moment, so I hope that made sense.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on May 18, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
Is everybody paying close attention to the Robotech Tactics as it winds up? It's ending Monday - currently about to break $1 million in funding! Unbelievable.

Dave Chase - didn't you say elsewhere you have pledged in for it? What level did you go for, if you don't mind my asking?
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on May 18, 2013, 01:21:07 PM
Well, I started out fairly large into it but then reality had to take a bit out of me and I had to lower my pledge (will do that officially on Monday before it ends, so we can try to keep the extras rolling in)>

Another reality bite that got me is, who am I going to play with in miniatures in this small rural town and county. I can't drive that much this year and possibly next year (cancer and broken knee cap for now) so trying to travel 1 to 2 hours just to game for a few hours is out.

My current plan is to buy in to the basic set and a few extras so that I can get one of about every figure that they are making.

Heck if I could afford it, I would drop $15,000 and get the complete SDF-1 set and 2 Zentradi sets (which would only be 1/2 to 2/3 of a complete Destroyer set TO&E.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on May 18, 2013, 09:37:53 PM
I have been getting caught up in the excitement of getting  the Robotech game, especially with watching the campaign so closely and seeing all the stretch goal extras being packed into the 'Battle Cry' pledge level.

I am seriously having a hard time resisting the urge to get one - and I am in the same situation as you, Dave... If I bought one, I'd have no one to play it with. But, I am a massive Robotech fan & I'd love to have it regardless...
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on May 19, 2013, 09:38:35 AM
Battlecry is the way to go then,

The only thing it will not have is the monster and space craft

Awesome looking figures

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on May 19, 2013, 09:58:16 AM
Part of my problem (addiction to games) is that I want some of these figures too

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/deadzone-the-sci-fi-miniatures-board-game (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/deadzone-the-sci-fi-miniatures-board-game)

If it wasn't for this kickstarter game of Deadzone coming up so soon, I would probably sink more money into Robotech, even if there is no one to game with.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on May 19, 2013, 01:40:15 PM
Wow. I'm seriously considering pledging on the Deadzone Kickstarter. It's definitely an interesting one to look to in terms LoS.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on May 19, 2013, 04:27:55 PM
Not trying to get to spend more of your money, but check out their (the deadzone company) other Kickstarter games and look at those figures.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on May 19, 2013, 04:32:40 PM
I'm already familiar with Mantic, unfortunately for my wallet. Fortunately, I have resisted their siren-song thus far. Unfortunately, Deadzone's melody might finally be too much for me. Fortunately, the metaphor is so strained at this point that noone knows what I'm talking about anyway.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on May 21, 2013, 04:34:29 PM
Wow. I'm seriously considering pledging on the Deadzone Kickstarter. It's definitely an interesting one to look to in terms LoS.

Its a very interesting looking game to be sure, but it doesn't quite fire my imagination enough to buy into. There are some really good looking figures, like the giant plague carrier, but some of the others are a little generic looking for my tastes. Not to say they aren't nicely detailed or professionally sculpted, just not hooking me personally.

I like the idea they have for the modular building game pieces - they look really good, and the re-play factor is high with the ability to make a different tabletop each time you play. Its also a great idea to help sell a game that doesn't require you to make up all your own terrain [a daunting task for some].

I'll be keeping an eye on this kickstarter campaign more now that the Robotech Tactics one is complete. They're doing very well with it.

Not trying to get to spend more of your money, but check out their (the deadzone company) other Kickstarter games and look at those figures.

Dave Chase
Very cool that they've been so successful launching all those games via Kickstarter. I see the 'Warpath' game is a bit of a pre-cursor to Deadzone.

I had a conversation with my neighbour this morning about current tabletop mini's on the market, and he mentioned that a lot of them are very similar, almost too generic with their troop type selections. He also said that he really liked the uniqueness of LoS. Interesting to note that the Warpath game from Mantic almost feels just like a take-off of classic 40k, with all the typical 'fantasy' races such as orcs, elves, dwarves and rat-people placed in a futuristic setting.

I ended up monitoring the Robotech KS campaign over its final two hours - they really shot up high, finishing with a staggering $1.44million! The key thing I took away from that was how well set up their stretch goals were, and the rabid mania that developed with the possibility of getting tons of freebies tossed in the higher it went.

Very good structure to it - set cash values attained would first unlock extra figures as 'add-on purchases' but if they then reached a higher set pledge total those items became free [at a certain individual pledge level] while other figures were then made available as add-ons. AND they kept it up to date, up to the minute.

They mentioned how impressed they were with the degree of comments people were posting, and they listened & adjusted as they were able to. The level of social-media sharing to spread the word was also immense.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on May 22, 2013, 10:47:23 AM
Its a very interesting looking game to be sure, but it doesn't quite fire my imagination enough to buy into. There are some really good looking figures, like the giant plague carrier, but some of the others are a little generic looking for my tastes. Not to say they aren't nicely detailed or professionally sculpted, just not hooking me personally.

I like the idea they have for the modular building game pieces - they look really good, and the re-play factor is high with the ability to make a different tabletop each time you play. Its also a great idea to help sell a game that doesn't require you to make up all your own terrain [a daunting task for some].
This is probably the best part of that Kickstarter for me. I notice they have terrain-only pledge levels (with which you can include terrain add-ons), so they apparently realise that this would be the case for a lot of people.

I had a conversation with my neighbour this morning about current tabletop mini's on the market, and he mentioned that a lot of them are very similar, almost too generic with their troop type selections. He also said that he really liked the uniqueness of LoS.
That is interesting. It does seem that most games have gone towards hyper-stylized miniatures, reminiscent of Manga. It's the same trend that created the concept piece that's in the gallery here, after all. I think there may still be a pretty significant market for a much less over-the-top sci-fi miniatures along the lines of LoS. Of course, that's just a gut feeling, but it stems from conversations with other miniature gamers.

Interesting to note that the Warpath game from Mantic almost feels just like a take-off of classic 40k, with all the typical 'fantasy' races such as orcs, elves, dwarves and rat-people placed in a futuristic setting.
I believe Mantic was formed by a bunch of ex-GW guys, and their original line of Fantasy miniatures (before they even had the Kings of War game) appeared to be intended to directly steal sales from GW by undercutting them. The designer in the Deadzone video was a game designer and White Dwarf editor at GW back in the 90s.

I ended up monitoring the Robotech KS campaign over its final two hours - they really shot up high, finishing with a staggering $1.44million! The key thing I took away from that was how well set up their stretch goals were, and the rabid mania that developed with the possibility of getting tons of freebies tossed in the higher it went.

Very good structure to it - set cash values attained would first unlock extra figures as 'add-on purchases' but if they then reached a higher set pledge total those items became free [at a certain individual pledge level] while other figures were then made available as add-ons.
I spoke to this in a reply I made to you and Dave in another thread. Basically, my feeling is that this kind of structure is crucial for any miniatures-based Kickstarter to really explode. It creates the environment for a "feeding frenzy" to occur as stretch goals become unlocked.

AND they kept it up to date, up to the minute.

They mentioned how impressed they were with the degree of comments people were posting, and they listened & adjusted as they were able to. The level of social-media sharing to spread the word was also immense.
Also immensely important is that sense of two-way communication; it's basically inexpensive marketing, as it taps into people's desire to be heard and appear to be listened to.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on May 25, 2013, 09:42:48 AM
Excellent article by Matt Forbeck detailing a lot of what I've been mentioning about miniatures Kickstarters.
http://www.forbeck.com/2013/05/23/top-ten-tabletop-kickstarters-how-they-do-it/ (http://www.forbeck.com/2013/05/23/top-ten-tabletop-kickstarters-how-they-do-it/)
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Brother Jim on May 25, 2013, 10:08:27 AM
I can't get that link to work when I click on it, or when I copy/paste to google.


Can someones heplz me? I appear to be a bigger coputater-idjit than normal today.
Thanks.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on May 25, 2013, 10:36:40 AM
Try it this way

www.forbeck.com/2013/05/23/top-ten-tabletop-kickstarters-how-they-do-it/ (http://www.forbeck.com/2013/05/23/top-ten-tabletop-kickstarters-how-they-do-it/)


Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Dave Chase on May 25, 2013, 02:58:16 PM
Another reason to try and push ahead right now (ie with in a years time) with getting LoS back out into the public is that GW players are looking for something else to play that does not have rule changes every year, figures do not cost more than you utilities and are looking for something a bit more in depth.

I think LoS can fit some of those needs.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: bobloblah on May 25, 2013, 05:58:46 PM
Wasn't you...didn't work for me, either. I messed up the original formatting, somehow. Should be fixed now.

EDIT: Thanks, Dave. Oh, and I agree, those are all good reasons to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on May 28, 2013, 07:43:25 PM
Try it this way

www.forbeck.com/2013/05/23/top-ten-tabletop-kickstarters-how-they-do-it/ (http://www.forbeck.com/2013/05/23/top-ten-tabletop-kickstarters-how-they-do-it/)


Dave Chase

Great article. Robotech Tactics clearly followed that business model. It would be great if we could successfully get to a point where plastic LoS mini's are possible.

Too bad there wasn't a little more info about that in the article other than mentioning its done with 'hard-won knowledge', but then it was just focusing on the Kickstarter facet.

Another reason to try and push ahead right now (ie with in a years time) with getting LoS back out into the public is that GW players are looking for something else to play that does not have rule changes every year, figures do not cost more than you utilities and are looking for something a bit more in depth.

I think LoS can fit some of those needs.

Absolutely. Although, I think disenchanted GW players are in a nearly steady state of supply considering their business plan over the years. As long as they continue to draw in young newbies, they'll eventually burn them out via the expense or the continual rules revisions/overhauls :)
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: grendeljd on May 28, 2013, 07:59:47 PM
Its a very interesting looking game to be sure, but it doesn't quite fire my imagination enough to buy into. There are some really good looking figures, like the giant plague carrier, but some of the others are a little generic looking for my tastes. Not to say they aren't nicely detailed or professionally sculpted, just not hooking me personally.

I like the idea they have for the modular building game pieces - they look really good, and the re-play factor is high with the ability to make a different tabletop each time you play. Its also a great idea to help sell a game that doesn't require you to make up all your own terrain [a daunting task for some].
This is probably the best part of that Kickstarter for me. I notice they have terrain-only pledge levels (with which you can include terrain add-ons), so they apparently realise that this would be the case for a lot of people.

Having new tile sets for a relaunch of LoS will be key, I think tile types that players of the original never had would be very enticing for them as well as new players. Perhaps they could become part of a good stretch goal campaign, maybe even as a whole separate add-on.

I had a conversation with my neighbour this morning about current tabletop mini's on the market, and he mentioned that a lot of them are very similar, almost too generic with their troop type selections. He also said that he really liked the uniqueness of LoS.
That is interesting. It does seem that most games have gone towards hyper-stylized miniatures, reminiscent of Manga. It's the same trend that created the concept piece that's in the gallery here, after all. I think there may still be a pretty significant market for a much less over-the-top sci-fi miniatures along the lines of LoS. Of course, that's just a gut feeling, but it stems from conversations with other miniature gamers.

I am a fan of a lot of the high end modern gaming illustration styles out there [I recently picked up some AT-43 army list supplements - they are just blowing my mind right now]. But I think it is easy to end up doing something that is rather generic amidst a sea of similarity out there. I think a new LoS product needs to compete at the current level of standards, but it has a unique look that should be updated with as much respect to the original vision as possible.

Interesting to note that the Warpath game from Mantic almost feels just like a take-off of classic 40k, with all the typical 'fantasy' races such as orcs, elves, dwarves and rat-people placed in a futuristic setting.
I believe Mantic was formed by a bunch of ex-GW guys, and their original line of Fantasy miniatures (before they even had the Kings of War game) appeared to be intended to directly steal sales from GW by undercutting them. The designer in the Deadzone video was a game designer and White Dwarf editor at GW back in the 90s.

Well now, that makes a lot of sense. Nobody can really sue them for copyright over using the same generic fantasy races as GW, either - lol!

AND they kept it up to date, up to the minute.

They mentioned how impressed they were with the degree of comments people were posting, and they listened & adjusted as they were able to. The level of social-media sharing to spread the word was also immense.
Also immensely important is that sense of two-way communication; it's basically inexpensive marketing, as it taps into people's desire to be heard and appear to be listened to.

Agreed!
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: smokingwreckage on June 09, 2013, 11:44:44 AM
Plastic UNE and Machines would be pretty feasible. Only a handful of unique sculpts in that.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Wyatt on June 22, 2013, 10:35:08 AM
I would think that having all the black box minis in plastic would be in LOS best interest. While start up costs are higher (although that cost has come down considerably more than most think), for such integral figures you'll see a much higher return on your investment. Perhaps if a kickstart is initiated you could make that a stretch goal. Have the initial box set set displayed with metal and/or resin minis. Then if a certain dollar figure is reached a plastic spruce is released and all backers models that are on that spruce will be doubled. You could even divide them have a UNE spruce stretch goal and Machine spruce stretch goal., 
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Clark on September 30, 2013, 08:22:17 AM
I seem to remember reading that Inferno sold really well, and what spiked Global Games was tooling up for a Star Wars game and then having the license-holder lose the license, thus torpedoing the entire thing.

Inferno was sold as a game with paper mapboards and cardboard stand-ups instead of figures, along with a bunch of counters and various blast templates.  Then all the miniatures were sold separately.  I don't know how well the figs sold although I recall many getting good reviews.  The game itself was simultaneously released in multiple languages into the European market and I think the total was about 12,000 copies right out of the gate.  Having the Star Wars deal tank was one thing, the X-Game was another and then I think there were problems in collecting the receivables from some of the European distributors. 
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Clark on September 30, 2013, 08:33:53 AM
On the miniatures, I don't understand why everyone sticks with the 25mm square on their dungeons. Go for 30. Modellers love those round lips. I understand every square being 5mm larger adds up over a map, but it seems like it'd be worth it at the end.

For GenCon '94 we built a 3D board out of foam ( http://www.homedepot.ca/product/durofoam-eps-rigid-insulation-96inch-x-48inch-x-15inch/940442 (http://www.homedepot.ca/product/durofoam-eps-rigid-insulation-96inch-x-48inch-x-15inch/940442) ).  Since you actually had to worry about the miniatures fitting between the walls, we had to change the ground scale to 1-1/2" squares (about 38mm) which much more closely matches the figure scale.  It looked awesome and was fun to play on but was sort of impractical for home use due to the size and bulk of the foam.
Title: Re: A detailed example: kickstarter
Post by: Clark on September 30, 2013, 10:07:30 AM
It was "announced" there, if you can call it that, by which I mean it was mentioned it in the Sci-Fi forums. One can debate whether it was the lack of exposure the Kickstarter had (although it was a couple years ago, so that might be why you missed it) or lack of manuscript that killed it, but even with far more exposure I suspect it would have failed because of the latter; Mike was simply asking people to give him $25,000 with a vague promise of eventually delivering something.

I had never heard of Kickstarter until Romain told me about it, and I never looked closely at it until more recently.  The thing about books and even video games going through kickstarter is that you are basically pledging to pay someone's wages be it the artists, the coders or the writer.  A physical product requires non-artistic, technical skills and material costs, with the latter being more significant and a per unit basis.

Matt Forebeck's analysis seems solid: plastic minatures have similar economies of scale to information products such as books and computer games, but also retain some marginal utility of actually owning multiple copies.  An individual does not need two copies of a computer game or a book, although NYX is offering two copies of LOS on different formats if you want one for your PC and one for your phone or tablet.  With miniatures, the more the merrier! Who doesn't want a bigger army?