Legions of Steel Forum

Legions of Steel => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Dave Chase on February 08, 2011, 10:14:44 AM

Title: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on February 08, 2011, 10:14:44 AM
I would like to see a RPG of the game but not at the sacrifice of the table/miniature rules.

What like about the original Warhammer Fantasy game, there was a section in the RPG book that gave you the things you needed to convert the RPG character to battle stats and Battle stats to RPG stats.

This would be very nice, if such a thing existed for LOS.

At the very least, I would like to see an expanded Campaign section that gave/allowed for more growth of your main characters (figures) used in the miniature rules.

Of course, there should always be that chance when they get hit, they still die. Maybe not as great a chance but still needs to be a possibility. Other wise it would just be like playing  Heros game (computer game) if your important characters could not ever die.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: bobloblah on February 08, 2011, 08:57:02 PM
Something like this can be tough, as the odds of dying in an RPG setting are (usually!) much lower than in a table-top wargame. They also come down to random chance in RPGs less often than in wargames. At least, that's my experience.

Losing a character you've been developing for weeks, months or years can be quite a blow at the RPG table, but it's worse when choices you've made had little impact. Perhaps you could solve this with lots of Leadership or Hero points, a la Sgt. Patterson...
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on February 09, 2011, 09:31:28 AM
True about losing a character, but I have seen that happen in just RPGing with out miniatures table top. :)

I think it would work for the following reasons. It would allow those who want to develop an army or battle group to possibly not only add some character to the group but individualize that group or its main leaders/figures.

On the other side, if there was an easy conversion from RPGing LOS to table top, then you would not need create RPG combat rules, since you already have table top rules.

And the idea for both sides, it might just bridge the gap and get some mini players to RPG and some RPG players to minis.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Vile on February 14, 2011, 07:45:43 AM
I think the reason death rates are lower in RPGs is simply that player characters aren't dumb enough to join the army and get themselves killed by an armchair general ...  ;)

It'd be very cool to see an RPG version of LOS. Count me in if you need writing hands.

For more limited "characterisation" within the miniatures game, there's certainly an investment on the part of the player and a sense of loss if that character gets killed, but that's part of the fun. A few tabletop games I've played had such elements, and the risk of loss has, for me, always been outweighed by the fun of having a special "ace" or two.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: smokingwreckage on February 16, 2011, 09:23:41 PM
You need more detail in an RPG.

That said, you could use the injury rules from LOS if all you wanted was a more detailed squad game, and add the Junction Point Campaign experience rules, and voila! Alternatively you could add a rule for "heroes" or "characters" which would basically be that they don't die outright without meeting certain conditions. Maybe if they can't be evacuated in a rerun of the same scenario, using fresh troops for both sides, with their "kill" spot marked as the objective for the mission, THEN they die.

Alternatively just run an RPG in the massive implied universe from the LOS fluff. Use Savage Worlds or Fudge or for real fanatics, write up life-paths etc for Burning Wheel. Burning Empires might work, replacing the Worm with Machine invasion, utilising brain-chips for the Infiltration phase (Clearly either BloodLord or Charlie Overlords).
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: SgtHulka on February 17, 2011, 11:57:23 AM
I finally found and uploaded my old LoS RPG rules to Google Docs. I titled them Commando 2150, apparently. They also include solitaire programmed missions at the end, which use a system similar to Victory Games' Ambush! if you're familiar with that. Anyway the file link is:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BxkzUHwCdhd5MDgyYTY5OWQtOTA3ZC00YzJjLWE2ODEtNTdkYzEwZTI5ZmU0&hl=en&authkey=CJPsuHw (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BxkzUHwCdhd5MDgyYTY5OWQtOTA3ZC00YzJjLWE2ODEtNTdkYzEwZTI5ZmU0&hl=en&authkey=CJPsuHw)
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Clark on February 17, 2011, 09:00:36 PM
Hulka, that looks like there was a bit of Traveller (Mercenery) influence.  I'd never seen those before.  A professional RPG writer took a liking to LOS and he started working on an RPG.  We ran into some 'creative differences', so - if I recall correctly - we bought him out of what he had wrote to that point.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on February 17, 2011, 09:44:39 PM
Sgt Hulka, I have not read your rules in detail, but in general they look good.

I would agree with Clark that they have a Traveller'sh feel to them, but there is nothing wrong with that.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Clark on February 17, 2011, 09:51:07 PM
I loved the Traveller character generation rules under Mercenery and High Guard, except for the survival rolls.  We treated it as an automatic muster for some unknown wound that would never affect gameplay but the army apparently didn't want.

I'd have to take a closer look to give a complete opinion.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: SgtHulka on February 17, 2011, 10:37:26 PM
Yup, HEAVILY influenced by Mercenary. 

Aw, come on Clark, you didn't like the survival rolls? That was half the fun! Especially for Scouts..."oh thank gawd, I survived another term of service...but I don't have Navigation skill yet...should I muster out or re-enlist...I've got an A endurance, I'm re-enlisting!"
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Clark on February 17, 2011, 11:01:58 PM
Well, reality doesn't always make good gameplay.

For reality. I will stick with reality.  But for gameplay, I will stick with gameplay.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: SgtHulka on February 17, 2011, 11:28:30 PM
It wasn't about reality for me, it was about the sweaty-palmed gambling ;)

I agree, I got too much reality in real life.

On the other hand, bouncing around the galaxy on a tramp freighter three months behind on your payments trying to outrun the loan company... ;)
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Clark on February 18, 2011, 06:15:28 PM
We played a space campaign using the Traveller setting, Star Hero RPG rules and Star Fleet Battles for ship-to-ship combat.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Vile on February 18, 2011, 11:04:30 PM
It wasn't about reality for me, it was about the sweaty-palmed gambling ;)
Good point about that. The basic Classic Traveller characters were so much fun to roll up we didn't mind having to try again when we pushed our luck too far. Traveller is full of those little mini-games, like ship building and world generation. If you also refereed games, you could always keep the little index cards for use as NPCs.

I think that spirit would work well for porting LoS into an RPG system, keeping all the player record-keeping to minimalist little sheets, none of these four-page character sheets.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Clark on February 18, 2011, 11:54:50 PM
Or High Guard and Trillion Credit Squadron. I never actually played it, but man, did I have hours if fun building ships and fleets.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Vile on February 19, 2011, 08:38:20 AM
Which brings me to the next question - now that Traveller has an OGL and SRD, have you ever considered an LoS RPG using the Traveller rules?
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: rcbecker1 on July 02, 2012, 05:56:02 PM
Two Hour Wargames has a good system 5150  for mini RPG gaming so do some other systems.
Theres also a Hammers Slammers RPG for Traveler which would be very close to what you are doing here.
 
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Clark on June 19, 2013, 10:30:00 PM
I think the trick to to design an RPG system that melds well with the board game, unless we take it far afield of the actual battles and keep it there.  To my mind, it is just embarassing if characters and equipment in the RPG do not perform statistically the same as they would in the board game.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on June 19, 2013, 11:06:53 PM
Howdy Clark. :D

I agree that one should be able tot switch easily from the RPG to the board game rules.

That was one of the things that I liked about the original Warhammer RPG to miniature game rules.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: bobloblah on June 27, 2013, 02:10:28 PM
I think this is very hard with LoS for several reasons. The design space is very limited with everything being D6, the boardgame models a level of lethality in ranged combat that tends to conflict with RPGers attachment to their characters, and the boardgame was made to model claustrophobic, "dungeon" combat, which is a small subset of typical Sci-Fi RPG combat.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on June 27, 2013, 03:37:42 PM
Some interesting and good points.

What about the table top rules? Do you feel the same way about them?

Also, if you played the campaign rules, not all figures were considered dead, dead. Some where just injured.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: bobloblah on June 27, 2013, 06:01:00 PM
True about the campaign rules, but still far too deadly for an RPG, I think. The table top rules are more complicated. I've played them much less and don't know them as well, but even so they aren't nearly as good for a whole host of reasons. They still suffer from the D6 limited design space thing, as well.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on June 27, 2013, 09:13:43 PM
Maybe being deadly will make it a new and different type of RPG.

;)

In Traveller RPG, your character can die in character creation or stop being in a career due to injury (instead of death).

Those Hero points could come in handy too. ;)

In my mine's eye, I am not looking for a RPG like Amber or Vampires or such. I am looking for away for players to add personality to their game, have interactions beyond the board/table top and do some more playing I the LoS universe.

Power armor for the fighting part of the game, makes most physical stats un-needed so skills will be the key.

With the RPG, we can (possibly) have more wounding charts than a kill chart and leave the kills as they are in the battle games. Just point out rules (the RPG only) about the wounding instead of dying.

It makes it more important to never leave a man (person/entity) behind or they will be dead in the hands of the Machines.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on June 28, 2013, 01:42:14 PM
Been thinking a bit about the kills in LoS board and Tabletop rules versus the RPG game.
(Note: this is purely speculation and day dreaming. I do not want to put more energy into the RPG than the other two.)

First, I kind of like the Traveller and Burning Wheel game character creations. You develop your character from young to old and can have accidents or death.

With that in mind, I was thinking that what if instead of just skills you could possibly gain something that I will call Fate (for short instead of calling it cheating death). You can only gain it once (unlike other skills or some other abilities.)
Fate is an ability that you the player can use if your character gets wounded or a kill.

Here is how it would work;
If your character is wounded or receives a kill, you can choose to use Fate to make an adjustment.
You can move the damage up or down one spot (need a chart here to show this) to make things better, but you also have to make a mark by the Fate ability.
Your other option is to roll 1d6 and possibly receive the following:
1) nothing changes
2-5) move your damage up or down by up to the number on the dice
6) Quit faking it, it was only a scratch. Character gets a minor reprimand for faking an injury.

Now note earlier when I said that if you use Fate to move the damage up or down by one (ie no roll) you have to make a mark. This is important because once you have 5 marks on your Fate the next time you use it you have to roll 1d6 to determine your Fate ability.

Also, you can at any time use the 1d6 roll for Fate and it will reset your Fate marks back to zero.  This includes when you are made to use the fate ability because of 5 marks.


So, what do you all think?

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Scoutzout on June 28, 2013, 04:21:38 PM
I like a fate ability idea, something that protects a characters longevity in a dangerous universe laden with disruption effects and heavy burstlances.

I do think you need to take a good look at what the "feel" or theme of an RPG is before moving to the mechanics of it.

Military campaigns are typically short lived (forgive the pun). Once PCs start getting shot, dissolving into a pile of goo...fun tends to grind to a halt as new character construction begins..

Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on June 28, 2013, 09:08:47 PM
Never played Paranoia have you? ;)

Dying is part of the game. LOL

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Scoutzout on June 29, 2013, 01:55:23 AM
Oh I have played Paranoia. Its a very tounge in cheek, we expect you to die horribly, so lets make clones.

Which goes to exactly what I was saying.. theme precedes mechanics. When we play paranoia, we know "invest in bootlicking" it helps when turning your teammates in so you can rise in level.

When our heroic commando dons her suit of of Paladin Armor, primes her blaster carbine and adjusts her combat load based on the pending mission... Death will be on her mind, but it most likely wont be caused by malfunctioning rocket boots  ;D
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: smokingwreckage on June 29, 2013, 12:24:26 PM
The death rates in a typical LOS game equate to military disaster verging on farce. I'd like to see a variety of campaigns possible, from freebooters in the fringe regions through politics and into outright military campaigns. Usually in an RPG if you get caught on the point end of a 90% casualty room-clearing catastrophe... you've done something wrong!
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: bobloblah on June 29, 2013, 11:26:07 PM
We call that TPK, son.
Title: Fate point or staying alive
Post by: Dave Chase on June 30, 2013, 09:57:20 AM
Fate chart:
A Hero point or a Fate point can be used on the first roll
Only Fate can be used on the second roll.

Roll 1d6 for the top of the chart then roll another 1d6 to determine the injury level

Code: [Select]
Cataclysmic  Trauma    Serious    Standard  Minor    Scratch
      1        2        3        4        5        6

1 Dead (MIA)   Coma    Compound  Cracked  Dislocated  Stitches
       Fracture Limb   Ribs    shoulder      
2 Dead    Missing limb  Broken Ribs  Impaled  Bruised Joint  
3 Dead    2 Limb broken  Torn muscle  Cut muscle  Stitches    Bruised
4 Coma    1 broken limb  Torn ligament  Infection  Bruised & used  Exhaustion
5 Serious  2 fractured  Cut & Infection   Dislocated  Pulled muscle  Black & Blue
  Concussion  limbs        joint        all over
6 Every bone  Crushed feet  Concussion  Bruised  Stiff muscles  Faking it
Broken or cracked        Body

Limbs roll 1d6
1 left arm, 2 right arm, 3 left leg, 4 right leg, 5 both arms, 6 both legs


Healing time is min 7 weeks, Take the first roll and subtract that from 7 to determine number of weeks

Take the second roll and subtract that from 7 to determine the number of days in the last week.
Ie, if you rolled 5 then a 4, your character would need 2 weeks and 3 days to be fully recovered.

If character attempts to do combat before they are healed, take the remaining number of weeks left as a negative mod to their attack roll.


Suggestion of the chart.

1's are bad things, 6's are better.

1 and 1 is extremely terrible
6 and 6 is physically very good but getting a 'Faking it' roll on the chart or Fate roll is not so good as it ends up in the character's Military record or character reputation.

So, what do you think?

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Brother Jim on June 30, 2013, 12:50:27 PM
How about adding in a 50/50 chance that "Faking it" was actually just knocked out with no additional complications (due to the wonders of powered armor technology).
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on June 30, 2013, 09:09:12 PM
Ah, Knocked out, Thanks, I will add that to one of the blanks I left in Scratched.

As for making Faking it 50/50, here is why I say no. (this is not a NO, never ever, no, just no, I do not think so because)

At the extreme end you have dead/MIA, which is dead.
On the positive side that you are not hurt worth anything, then the Faking it makes you want to use the Fate to move it down to Black and Blue or lower if you roll for it on Fate.

I did not want you to roll for an injury and then have no injury at all scott free.
I have not listed the Character generation but in simple layout

You would determine your race, roll your stats, roll your background (where you are born and such), then do school (or not), then join the military (or some other branch, but military is the basic part of the RPG, other careers will come later in supplements).

While doing your military service, you check for each year of service for training, boredom, combat, and boredom with some more combat. Each combat check, if you are in combat, you check for survival from the combat.
You can survive, with out injury or with injury.
You can also receive a kill, which will still make you roll on the injury table but at a -3.

Depending on what military path you take and what mission you had that year, will determine what the chances of survival will be and the chances of injury from that mission will be.


Hope that makes some basic sense.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Scoutzout on July 01, 2013, 11:49:51 AM
Thats a pretty tough chart. My question is how are you dealing with downtime.?

 Lets say a group of PCs get involved in a boarding action. This group has been assigned/hired/forced to investigate a derelict craft.

The boarding action reveals a machine infiltration unit, stowed onboard. Their mission to get inside of a UNE comm satellite and hack it. A firefight ensues...

The battle results in 3 of the 5 party members wounded and down for 7 weeks. The LT. died from a Disruption grenade.

LT Player is rolling a new character
3 Players are down for 7 weeks

What is the effect on the campaign? Do they have alternate characters? Is the module/adventure designed in such a way to compensate for these eventualities?

The healing penalty is also pretty tough. A follow up engagement 3 weeks later would result in a -4 combat modifier? I am not familiar with the system but is that pretty hefty?

From a heroic perspective having a random "I was faking it event" is tough as well.  What if my character would rather die than fake it? Does an elite UNE commando even fake it?

A couple of options is healing resources to speed these things along. A medic class. Equipment that allows for a more rapid recovery.  Like a bacta tank from Star Wars or health injectors/combat stimulants and pain suppressors or something along that line. Expand on the equipment in the universe. There has to be some advances in the medical field as well...


Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on July 01, 2013, 03:42:38 PM
My apologize for not being clearer on the chart usage. It is only for Character creation.

I did not create it with the concept of being used all across the board in the games or even during normal RPG game.

Now, if you would like to see such a chart used for all injuries, please feel free to make suggestions.

When I was making this chart, it was under the concept of how Burning Wheel and Traveller RPG's create characters.

Thanks for the suggestion and comments.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: smokingwreckage on July 24, 2013, 09:08:21 AM
In Burning Wheel, you can play Orc characters. They are nasty, driven by Hate, and very cool. They start out pretty weak, but you can add life-paths to them and beyond a certain point they tend to turn into very hard combatants. Downside is you have to test for permanent injuries like lost limbs.

Is that what you're working on here? You can take additional life-paths as Commando and so on, and get seriously powered up for combat, but the downside is the possibility of anything from PTSD to missing limbs?

I mean, tunnel warfare makes the Somme or the Pacific look civilised (and in the main timeline the LoA is short of manpower all the time) Characters who'd been through it would be BAMF's but probably got pensioned out for a reason.
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Dave Chase on July 24, 2013, 05:42:43 PM
smokingwreckage, that is a cool idea

Dave Chase
Title: Re: RPGing LOS
Post by: Clark on August 02, 2013, 06:19:24 PM
Sounds like the old Traveller character creation rules where you had to make survival rolls after each tour before you even started playing the character.

The campaign rules in Junction Point basically meant that only a third of those "killed" actually died. They went into a casualty pool and then at the end of each scenario, 1 in 6 died, 2 in 6, and the rest remained unresolved.