Legions of Steel Forum

Legions of Steel => Boards and Terrain => Topic started by: smokingwreckage on April 14, 2011, 04:54:39 AM

Title: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 14, 2011, 04:54:39 AM
I was wondering if Clark had ideas on this. How would LOS present its maps to the public? Is the New LOS going to be all shiny and packaged in a box with interlocking cardboard tiles? All other questions aside, what about the maps?

I ask because if it were to go with download-and-print of pretty new maps, or with printed paper maps like the Star Wars collectible miniatures game, I might know a guy who knows a guy who could do some pretty nice mapping with textures, details, and easy replication. A mate is into print-and-play miniatures and the associated community. These days a home user can also buy a cutting machine that cuts out very intricate shapes using a digital template, and again, I know a guy who can do that and is into that community.

I bring this up in part because of the "OK for 15 years ago" comment. An upgrade of the map graphics to the kind of fidelity and variety that people weaned on modern computer games are used to might go some ways to polishing up the image of NeoLOS. Importantly, it may not be either expensive or time intensive to get a new look - both the grid and the tile segment layout lend themselves to letting the computer do the grunt work (tiles and textures) and spending artistic talent on eye-candy (high-fi tile textures, extra detailing, a nice stone texture for the "blank" areas, general bling.)

(I was also thinking that the print-and-play community would be a potentially excellent market for the LOS fiction and game engine. They're already messing with tight indoor spaces with grids, after all.)
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on April 14, 2011, 07:14:41 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.  In my own little fantasy world I would have Tom redo the original templates in the copper we had for the Template Packs, print a whack load of them and put them out in the marketplace.  Then everyone would be working off the same set of tiles.

Otherwise, I am working on putting the tiles into Exel so that one can copy and paste them into whatever pattern you want.

Plus, I want to take the template art and format it for download and printing.  Each is 4" square which makes each set of 2x3 fit tightly on legal size paper.  If Avery or whomever makes sticky paper in legal size then you just print it out, stick it on 1/4" foam core, Maptac it and cut it into the individual templates.  The downside of this is that there would be no puzzle pieces interlinks to hold the board together.

The fourth possibility is to publish scenario maps in a format that can be downloaded and printed on a large format printer.  You can go to your local Kinkos that has a printer that can print on a rolling sheet that is something like 48" wide.

If #1 could be done then I think a modest profit would be appropirate, and with new art we could generate generic fantasy dungeon crawls as well as outdoor terrain . Otherwise, we put it out there on the internet.

What you have to understand is that the only thing we "ripped off" from Space Hulk is the grid that imposes some sanity on a miniature warfare gaming system.  One can grumble about the artwork but I think our templates are - physically - far superior to anything GW came up with. It was only years later that I noticed a flaw in that you can't off-set our templates by 2" to simulate a hex grid. That would open up a bunch of new possibilities in terms of map design and new templates.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: YojimboUsaka on April 14, 2011, 08:26:06 AM
I like both actually.  Not everyone will want to do the print and play option.  Requires some effort and a decent amount of set up before you play for the first time.  Awesome for those do it yourself types though.  Premade maps look really nice and can be made semi-modular.

I printed out a bunch of tiles for rooms/hallways/etc and stuck them to magnetic sheeting.  Looks good, stays put on a metal white board really well and can be put away with the map intact.

(http://los.turtleshellprod.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=71)
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: grendeljd on April 14, 2011, 08:29:54 AM
I don't know if many people have had a peek at my scenarios I posted in the Rules n' docs or not, but I have made up a basic template of every 'official' tile currently existing in LoS using Adobe Illustrator [sister program to photoshop]. In the scenarios, they are shrunk down, but it is extremely easy to take each tile as an individual object and scale them up to playing/printing size.

Currently they are all in greyscale and there aren't any cool details on them such as floor grates, textures, etc. BUT, it is easy to add colour and add any other detail to them. Now that I have done the grunt work to make them, its also veeerrrry easy to makes changes to create wholly new ones. Personally, I was thinking about making some corridors that are two squares wide...

Oh yeah, they can all be saved to a pdf format for downloading by the masses, but I don't have any better ideas on how to get them printed or placed onto interlocking cutouts.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Kindred on April 14, 2011, 09:40:40 AM
actually, the magnetic backing idea is pretty cool...
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: grendeljd on April 14, 2011, 09:53:44 AM
I like it too - is it hard to acquire a decent sized plate of magnetic sheeting? Is it expensive?
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 14, 2011, 10:00:09 AM
EDIT: magnetic wouldn't blow away, or need interlocking, but it does need an appropriate base, either metal or that magnetic plastic sheet. On with my long-winded post....

One thing that printable maps can do is free you to make any damn map that could go on a grid. More on that later.

A simpler option would be to get grendel here to spruce up the illustrator tiles and stick them in properly constrained PDFs so they print at the right scale. I know that can be done, but it was years ago that I studied Graphic Design. Yes, I have studied many things, all poorly.

Point being, that a simple PDF with essentially the original tiles but on smooth-sided rather than interlocking squares would let cheapskates get going pretty easily.

The original interlocking tiles are great and excellent in component quality on that heavy card but the graphics could use refinement. I don't hate the original art, just sayin'.

I have never played Space Hulk, just so everyone knows. For all I know it could be smurf combat on a hex grid.  ;)

Even so, pretty maps on thin paper have been OK with the Star Wars CMG crowd, and would allow square-grid, close quarter, "outdoor" maps and other novelties; similar range constraints, same movement rules, but novel environments. You and the designer/artist could then visually present some fleshed-out ideas of parts of the LOS universe: Infranite caverns? Privateer asteroid tunnel complexes? Room to room fighting in Vologorod or wherever it was the Fantasians and UNE were fighting? The ancient ruined guts of a Kraf ship? In addition to scenarios that played those out using the tile system, you could present new artwork and layouts the tiles couldn't do. The art isn't just about being pretty, it's about getting people's imaginations fired up, getting them to think and feel as though LOS was its own "reality" they could borrow for their various battles and stories. Basically the visual aspect of giving people an imagined world to play their games in. In that respect the chance to tie beautiful evocative artwork into your game and its war-stories is actually really valuable. To digress a little, and go back to the tiles, this is one reason why really extravagant tiles could (depending on your approach) make sense: that's the world they're playing in. By making it gorgeous (in a claustrophobic, horrible way) you invite people back. By making it, say, paintable textured 3D tiles, you invite them to participate, to make parts of the game into their own artwork.

Just some thoughts.

Clark, the wide format idea occurred to me. But that would IMO only miss the do-it-yourself-for-nix benefits. I guess a major question is how do you see the game being packaged, marketed, sold? At one end of the scale the models, a half-A4 rulebook and printed paper versions of the old tiles might fight in a large blister or small box. Way out the other end you could have gorgeous textured plastic or resin versions of the tiles in a deluxe box with new sculpts and a big colour rulebook. Then there's just re-releasing the Black Box EXACTLY as it was, which has a certain audacity, a kind of "this game rocked your socks 15 years ago and now it's back, without one lick of stupid wimpy 21st century garbage, to kick your arse again." Hell, maybe all of these approaches could be taken.

Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 14, 2011, 10:01:39 AM
Sign writers used to use magnetic sheet in large quantities. It might be fairly cheap bought in that venue.

EDIT: new thread in boards and terrain to discuss materials, where I've posted links to examples of magnetic sheet for price, quality, etc., discussion.

http://los.turtleshellprod.com/index.php?topic=102.0 (http://los.turtleshellprod.com/index.php?topic=102.0)
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Kindred on April 14, 2011, 10:38:58 AM
BTW: The use of magnetic tile son a steel board also allows for the use of magnets in the base of figures, which prevents accidental sliding and knocking...
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on April 14, 2011, 10:51:51 AM
Plus, you could play LOS on your fridge door! :-*

Intriguing idea but realistically, how many people have a steel desk to play on, or are willing to buy a piece of sheet metal?
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 14, 2011, 11:02:08 AM
You can get this magical plastic sheet, much like sheet magnet, that won't stick to metal, but magnets stick to it. And the obvious solution, Clark, is to play LOS on the bonnet of your car.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on April 14, 2011, 11:08:44 AM
LOS: Deathproof edition!  :P
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Dave Chase on April 14, 2011, 01:28:35 PM
MageKnight: Dungeons and HeroClix used large paper maps that folded down to the size of the old Traveller LBB.

The HeroClix ones were usually a set location but could be easily placed side by side to make cities or shopping areas.

The Dungeons one had entry/exits that were open and could match up to other maps, so you could make a rolling dungeon if one wanted.

Dave Chase
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: YojimboUsaka on April 15, 2011, 07:18:37 PM
They sell metal white-boards at most office supply stores in various sizes.  I picked up a  couple 3' x 4' boards for roughly $50 on sale. 

Very handy as I can put the maps away without packing up all the tiles.

Something like these guys are doing would be very cool.  They make 1 and 1 1/2 inch grids.
http://www.adventurers-atlas.com/2010/10/asteroid-mining-complex/ (http://www.adventurers-atlas.com/2010/10/asteroid-mining-complex/)

I know the DnD4 folks are putting out tons of terrain/scenario maps so there would be a market for the same in a sci-fi settign as well.

Charles
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on April 15, 2011, 09:14:52 PM
I think I will drop by Kinko's this weekend or next. I've used the large format printer a cuple of times. I walked in with a letter sized image and blew it up to something like 4' x 3'.

The printer they use is 48" wide on a roll, so as long as you want. It was something like $5 or $10 to print it out, but I can't remember. That gives you any map up to 11 tiles wide by as many long as you like (maybe 12 tiles depending on the margins of the printer).  That strikes me as the simplest solution for thise gamers who are not the DIY types.

For those who are, there any number of ways to skin a cat. The trick is to stop the templates from sliding around as you play. Maybe there is some sort of strange, commerically available fasteners that could hold them together?

There is the magnetuc option.

I was thinking of printing to foamcore, put velcro tabs on the bottom, and then play on a sheet of green felt that every miniature gamer has.

More industrious is to blow the templates up to 150% and then fashion walls out of 40 mm insulation foam or the like. At that size they wouldn't tend to slide about anyways but it is easy to fasten connecting walls by bending a paper clip into an oversized staple and inserting the legs into the tops of the connecting walls.

Well, if Tom is going to touch up the Painting Guide, perhaps the crew here can come up with a DIY template guide?

As I mentioned, the large format printer would be the easiest for those who don't want to mess with DIY.

The templates themselves would probably easy to ressurect with only two catches related to the fact that the die cutting process has some pretty steep economies of scale that require print runs in the thousand:

1) I don't have thousands of dollars to invest and
2) Even if I did, where the hell do I put, say, 6000 template packs?

This, of course, goes back to the more fundamental question of how to distribute the figs and dead trees (books, counters, maps).

As for re-releasing the Black or Blue, it is a couple orders or magnitude more complex than just the templates but doable if relying on a full service company to handle it the way we largely did for the first print run. The problem is the same as above but you are looking at $30,000 or more to do 2000 units and they take up around 500 cubic feet or something like eight 4' pallets full.


Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 16, 2011, 12:52:02 AM
Yeah, space, eh? Move to the country, heh heh heh. Even run-down or isolated property is going to be $$$. I don't understand retail or distro.

It seems like an approach might be a properly built web-site with all rules and templates downloadable for whatever $ seems fair. Everything would have to print ok at A4 (and Letter?) size. Then you don't have game boxes or books taking up inventory. The aim would be to get miniatures cast out-of-house and sell them. You might stick the old Black Box miniatures set in a mid-size clamshell together, with dice even. (Add the print-outs and you have a virtual Cheap-Ass Game.) Perhaps you could use pre-orders to get resculpts done, or proper card templates cut?

I'd pre-order a Mk1 with a trident that looked meaner but more importantly didn't arrive looking like a demonic pretzel. Just an example.

Upside: dodge all the paper and card, unified front, nothing new-new needed apart from a casting contract. Once set up the rules and templates and so-on might create some revenue and have a marginal cost of production approaching zero. Just using the old figures you could still space out releases. Each re-release could get you headlines on the gaming sites (The Miniatures Page and Tabletop Gaming News).

Downside: you're doing all the retail grunt work, packaging, posting, shipping. Could eat up time. Not much fun. You still need warehouse space of SOME sort. A full retail website will require professional assistance or $$.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: grendeljd on April 20, 2011, 03:20:48 PM
I've posted a quickly done test template sheet, using the templates I created in illustrator. Each tile is sized to 4"x4" on an 8.5"x11" page, with the grey line as a guide for cutting. As far as I know, it would print out size as - I don't have a printer currently so I can't test it. Please have a look and offer up opinions, y'all.

[smg id=122 type=av]
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: sgibson260 on April 21, 2011, 10:45:09 AM
Hi all,

In preparation for my LOS scenario at GenCon this August, I have made a pdf with replacement LOS tiles (I use a lot of tiles for my GenCon scenario, and mine are pretty beat up by this point).

I have posted the file here:
http://stevegibsongames.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/replacement-los-tiles-metal-floors-all.pdf (http://stevegibsongames.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/replacement-los-tiles-metal-floors-all.pdf)
And my LOS page on my gaming website is here:
http://stevegibsongames.wordpress.com/legions-of-steel/ (http://stevegibsongames.wordpress.com/legions-of-steel/)

<note: to get the correct link, change the <dot> in the URL>

I made all the official LOS tiles I could find, and all the expansions I could identify while I'm here on vacation and away from my LOS stuff. I'm pretty sure I have all the tiles from the base set on pages 1-15.

When I get home, I will have access to all my LOS stuff, but much less time to work on creating fixing and organizing tiles. If anyone wants to take a look and let me know how many of each tile were in the basic game, advanced rules, Junction Point, etc, I'd appreciate it and will add that info to the file. I will also break the file up by expansion at some point. Like a lot of things, I will get to it eventually.....

I will also gin up some objective counters, cave-in overlays, barricades, ladders, etc. at some point, probably during the mad rush leading up to GenCon. In the file, I did add a lot of weird variant tiles that I think will be cool to use.

Constructive comments are appreciated, and I'm especially interested if you'd let me know if I missed any of the official tiles. If there's something you're interested in seeing, it certainly can't hurt to ask. :-)

Good gaming,
Steve Gibson

Administrator Comment updated the links to the real location to bypass the restriction on new users posting links.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on April 29, 2011, 10:00:56 PM
The next set of "official" tiles were going to get pretty freaky with blank tiles for super-huge rooms as well as combinations non-connecting halls running in two directions across the tile, and odd shaped rooms.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: SgtHulka on April 30, 2011, 08:38:54 AM
What about just leasing stuff out?

As mentioned in other threads, Litko and Gale Force 9 do custom counters for a lot of game systems, and some they advertise as "official". Since this is all production-on-demand from them, anyway, I'd imagine they'd be stoked to produce "official" LoS counters.

Then, by the same token, if you're going to re-design the tiles and make it a pdf do it yourself, give the tiles to Worldworks or Fat Dragon or Oone to design. Their graphics are pretty much top of the industry.

This way you wouldn't have to pay anything, and you know the LoS stuff isn't gonna look cheap.
Title: Revised Gibson tiles (black walls, look better)
Post by: sgibson260 on June 13, 2011, 01:20:00 AM
Hi guys,

I have revised my homemade replacement tiles with black walls, to make them look better when printed.  They're here:
http://stevegibsongames.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/los-tiles-metal-floors-black-walls-official-tiles-20110612.pdf (http://stevegibsongames.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/los-tiles-metal-floors-black-walls-official-tiles-20110612.pdf)

You can print them 2 to a page.  The number you need to print to get the official tiles for the basic box and template packs are listed on each page.  I will post all my variant tiles again in the next few days.  Just figuring out how to organize them. 

Steve Gibson

Hi all,

In preparation for my LOS scenario at GenCon this August, I have made a pdf with replacement LOS tiles (I use a lot of tiles for my GenCon scenario, and mine are pretty beat up by this point).

I have posted the file here:
http://stevegibsongames.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/replacement-los-tiles-metal-floors-all.pdf (http://stevegibsongames.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/replacement-los-tiles-metal-floors-all.pdf)
And my LOS page on my gaming website is here:
http://stevegibsongames.wordpress.com/legions-of-steel/ (http://stevegibsongames.wordpress.com/legions-of-steel/)

<note: to get the correct link, change the <dot> in the URL>

I made all the official LOS tiles I could find, and all the expansions I could identify while I'm here on vacation and away from my LOS stuff. I'm pretty sure I have all the tiles from the base set on pages 1-15.

When I get home, I will have access to all my LOS stuff, but much less time to work on creating fixing and organizing tiles. If anyone wants to take a look and let me know how many of each tile were in the basic game, advanced rules, Junction Point, etc, I'd appreciate it and will add that info to the file. I will also break the file up by expansion at some point. Like a lot of things, I will get to it eventually.....

I will also gin up some objective counters, cave-in overlays, barricades, ladders, etc. at some point, probably during the mad rush leading up to GenCon. In the file, I did add a lot of weird variant tiles that I think will be cool to use.

Constructive comments are appreciated, and I'm especially interested if you'd let me know if I missed any of the official tiles. If there's something you're interested in seeing, it certainly can't hurt to ask. :-)

Good gaming,
Steve Gibson

updated the links to the real location to bypass the restriction on new users posting links.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Scoutzout on June 24, 2011, 12:19:36 AM
These are very nice Steve, thanks for sharing.  I have been looking at resin and other terrain out there and trying to decide which way to go. Resin/Printed or made from scratch (ceramic tiles etc)

Do you have any idea what it costs per tile to print and mount in your style per tile? It seems that if I compare the printed tile vs resin the costs are not too far off. Once you count ink, cutting time, mounting etc.

There are advantages to each one (portability, etc) so I am trying to figure out what to do.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on November 06, 2011, 11:47:58 PM
What about just leasing stuff out?

I'm all for that but leasing means you need to find someone else who figures they can make money off of something that we can't.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: grendeljd on November 07, 2011, 09:53:55 AM
What about just leasing stuff out?

I'm all for that but leasing means you need to find someone else who figures they can make money off of something that we can't.

I'm thinking someone out there would want to design/sell tile sets that would be appealing for use in any sci-fi tile based game but have a strong LoS feel. As SgtHulka suggests - there seem to be many companies out there suited to creating & selling a line of LoS specific tiles/counters already as a product stream. The whole print on demand industry is really a boon to the current state of the gaming industry...
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on November 08, 2011, 06:23:26 AM
It comes back to "core competancies": what do you do best?  And how valuable is our IP?  That is, if yo umake an otherwise generic product but slap the LOS logo on it, is there any added value?  If not, then it makes sense to enter into strategic partnerships with people who can make LOS compatible materials with a higher quality and at a lower price.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: smokingwreckage on November 20, 2011, 07:03:14 AM
Retail is a mystery to me.

Something that I'm banging my head against right now, in business, is risk. I am inclined to think that the lower the risk in an enterprise like this, the better. This contrasts with my real-life business where controlling risk seems to be impossible.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on November 21, 2011, 06:59:26 AM
There was some evolution in the way the templates were done as Marco looked for ways to push costs down.
In the end they were printed 24-up (6-up x 4 per sheet - one sheet made up a template pack and two Template Pack 1
were effectively what you got with the basic set).  They were then glued to cardboard and then die cut 24-up.

If you can print full-bleed (that is, right to the edge of the paper) then you can print 6-up on legal sized.  Marco still has
the dies; perhaps they could be cut into 4 pieces for use on a smaller, less expensive press.  That might allow a micro-printing shop
to make the templates rather than using a larger place where economies of scale don't kick in until you are doing a run of thousands.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Scoutzout on January 30, 2012, 01:07:43 AM
What was the format or the sizing for the pattern/dies that generated the intersecting tiles? I have seen a lot of different companies use similar tabs and formats but I dont quite understand how these are cut?
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Clark on February 03, 2012, 08:30:58 PM
Our dies were custom-made based on my own design. They are steel set into a block of wood.  I don't recall the the exact size of the paper or press that was used.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: smokingwreckage on February 04, 2012, 03:24:28 AM
I know cutting steel has gotten much cheaper in the last 20 years, maybe there's a better way to cut small print runs of card, too? Like, with lasers?

Manufacturing custom parts for machinery has gotten much, much cheaper and much more widely available thanks to computers and plasma cutters.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: smokingwreckage on February 04, 2012, 03:28:09 AM
http://www.troteclaser.com/en-US-au/solutions/material/Pages/Laser_Cutting_Paper.aspx?gclid=CJyyvtfyg64CFYeBpAodCX6c5w (http://www.troteclaser.com/en-US-au/solutions/material/Pages/Laser_Cutting_Paper.aspx?gclid=CJyyvtfyg64CFYeBpAodCX6c5w)
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Scoutzout on February 04, 2012, 11:40:32 PM
Yeah..there are things like Robo-Cutter that will cut very intricate patterns. I found this on a site that focuses on paper miniatures (they have some amazing stuff)
http://www.amazon.com/Craft-ROBO-Pro-CE5000-40/dp/B003910462 (http://www.amazon.com/Craft-ROBO-Pro-CE5000-40/dp/B003910462)


@Smoking Wreckage -I am liking the laser cutting and it creates some cool options- Thanks.

The interlocking design you made is cool Clark, very stable. I am not sure which method to use straight walls or interlocking tiles? The magnetized idea is supreme but costly.

Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Dave Chase on February 05, 2012, 10:33:02 AM
I like the laser cutter also. You got a spare 60,000 to 130,000 dollars that we can spend?

Dave Chase
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: Scoutzout on February 06, 2012, 12:00:19 AM
LOL..chump change  :P

However Its good to know there are options- there has to be smaller print houses out there...alternative s to die cutting and some of the older techniques.
Title: Re: Official LOS maps format.
Post by: rcbecker1 on July 02, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
I would do the rules in dead tree and PDF free or sell pdf s seperately. then keep everything else open for down loads as support again with the option to use any minis since the rules should be universal. then later if there's enough interest produce the mini line. rules in this format work example Two hours wargames. this format makes the rules easy to produce and sell. also you could have sheets of rules changes or up grades as printable pdfs for buyers to down load so they cna up date there rules. this way the only real cost is the paper book.
which is a binder type format.no big cover and binding which adds to the cost. you can sell the pdfs from your site or at wargames pdf store and such.

http://store.twohourwargames.com/scifi.html  (http://store.twohourwargames.com/scifi.html)

Another company with this format for games.


http://www.odgw.com/ (http://www.odgw.com/)