Pricing Out the classic LoS Figures

[grendeljd]

Hey all,

A small discussion started up on Facebook by Helleiner last month about how much people would be willing to pay for re-issued classic LoS figures.

Have a look HERE to see it [I can't recall if its a open request to join or if a member has to invite you, but Kindred runs the page anyway, ask & he can make you a member there if you want].

I just wanted to bring the discussion over here to elaborate on further & get more feedback from all of you.

I know there hasn't been much news on the board game front, but we are still doing things behind the scenes. Currently we are trying to determine the best course of action to bring the game back, and a major consideration is whether to get at least some of the old figures back into production first, or focus on developing a kickstarter campaign to redesign/resculpt, etc. Helleiner has been looking at the cost of producing the old figures, and his main question from the Facebook discussion was what people would be willing to pay for a single metal LoS figure today.

Please comment, we'd love to hear from every one of you!

[themailedfist]

I'd certainly love to have Legions of Steel back in my gaming world.  But I was critical on the Facebook side of spending $10 per model.  I think if that's the only way it's going to happen it's just too rich for my blood.  (That'd be $310 before the board game itself)

I also have very serious Kickstarter fatigue - I've backed 17 and of them 90% have been a disappointment.  I'd specifically NOT back a Kickstarter, IndieGoGo, et al.  I think it's just a road to disappointment now (overpromises, endless delays, et al)

I know this makes me seem like a terrible naysayer.  But I really do love Legions of Steel and would welcome it coming back - just the RIGHT way, not a way that's going to doom it before it has another chance.

--Robert

[smokingwreckage]

I must be abnormal. All my Kickstarters have been successful (ie., filled) although some were delayed.

For the price of multipart metal, my go-to reference is Reaper. Generally you can't make a model of similar complexity and mass, sell it for less than they do, and expect to turn a safe profit. Kickstarting takes out some risk, and the cost of finance, but adds in the risk that you might have over-discounted and received more orders than expected, and you're boned. That and casters or moldmakers that drop the ball have been real killers for several good projects.

http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/Chronoscope/latest/50300 For example, this guy is over $8, and may mass less than the LOS models, which were quite bulky. Individual GW metals come in at $20+.

I'd love to see the Paladin PBA and Nightmare chasis in plastic! Just sayin'.

[grendeljd]

Sorry to hear you've had bad luck with Kickstarter, MailedFist - I have only backed a handful of projects on KS myself, but the ones that have suffered delivery delays have either been worth the wait [still waiting for the Robotech game, but they are clearly working hard at getting it out ASAP with top quality values] or had problems beyond their control [a comic series I backed was printed but the copies all came out badly damaged from the printer & had to be completely re-run]. In order for us to relaunch LoS properly, I think we are going to have to rely on a successful KS campaign.

On the pricing of classic LOS figs - I would also agree with $10 per fig being a little high for my taste as well, hopefully if we do re-produce the classic figures we can get a *little* lower than that, but I can't guarantee it. And certainly if we were looking at making sets of figures, [ie a full UNE commando unit or an Internal Security Horde] that price per fig would be less, so you would not be spending $190-$230 to get the equivalent of the black box set to play with.

Unfortunately the reality is that inflation does become a factor. The fig's were very inexpensive in the 90's, compared to GW's over-inflated MSRP, but really - that was 15-20 years ago. And as smokingwreckage mentioned - GW charges over $20 per metal fig now. Its just not possible to realistically get the cost per metal fig down to $5-$6, without operating at a serious loss, at least on the small production scale we are looking to start out with.

The idea we are exploring with this, is whether it is worth it to put out a limited amount of the original figures ahead of doing a fully updated relaunch. The primary point of it would be to make fig's available to potentially new players who are interested in the game but are having trouble tracking them down via eBay etc., and generally help spread the word that the game is coming back.

Sincerely, I'd really appreciate more feedback here. Post your opinions, however brief 

[smokingwreckage]

My opinion is do a very small KS at a time, and you'll find out what the demand is that way. Do not commit to freebies or unpredictable stretch goals. Like I said, I'd back a KS if I could get into it at a fairly low entry; I might be able to scrape up $30 for 3 UNE-TOW-7 troopers, which are hard to find.

(I'm broke and unemployed right now, a big step down from where I was 10 years ago, which was 33% owner of a pretty nice business with good prospects.)

Anyway the demand will sort itself out; either it's there or it isn't. You need to have a modest KS that funds at a pretty low total goal and doesn't have any uncontrolled risk; you need the masters or moulds ready to roll and a caster ready to cast, and a realistic grip on the shipping.

Something that might be helpful is if you can get some playtesters and a decent graphics guy and make some new "official" maps and missions. That'd give old-timers something to buy-in for. Some nice-looking new map tiles as a PDF might also get the attention of new blood; a separate KS to fund new map tiles for the game, but perfectly serviceable for any other game *AHEM SPACE HULK* might be good advertising?

I'd be especially interested in anything that was reasonably balanced with multiple players competing for the goal, or some form of co-operative play. Both these are under-represented in tactical miniatures games.

[Clark]

I have to figure out how everything works now, but as the lead designer of LOS, I have to say that NO ONE SHOULD EVER HAVE TO PAY MORE THAN A HUNDRED BUCKS TO ENJOY THE GAME.

Fifteen bucks a figure works for GW and their rapacious business model. I consider it unacceptable.

 

[Clark]

Just a bit of a story related to this. When I was finishing up my business degree back about the same time that I was doing Global Games, I took a course where the major project was tp put together a business plan and then "pitch" it to the rest of the class. OF course, I did Global Games and focused almost exclusively on Legions of Steel.

The narrative of my pitch talked about alchemy: the transformation of base metals into precious metals.  "What if I could show you a business model where you buy lead and then sell it at the retail value of silver?" To me it was all business theatre but I didn't explicitly lay out all the caveats for a business that actually has a lot in common with Hollywood. This was a business plan, not a prospectus. Games Workshop was listed on the LSE as a penny stock and one analyst clearly said that it was a risky investment that rested soley on the "popularity" of the products. In a way, that is an asinine statement because the success of any business rests on how popular the products are, so I think what he meant was "faddish" rather than popular.

Anyways, with 40 students writing 50 page business plans, none of us were going to slog through 2000 pages to read all the conservative estimates, downsides, risks and such.  What I marveled at what how, in the presentation, a number were perplexed and asking "how could this fail?".  This was me making the presentation, and not Marco who we all know could sell ice cubes to Eskimos.

I just checked the markets and the list price for lead is just under a dollar a pound.  So the lead content in a 40 gram Fiend is worth about 8 cents.  The spot price for silver (and in my whole alchemy yarn, I talked about silver, not gold) is close to $20 per ounce troy.  That took a hit recently with everything going on in Crimea and the fact that the USA might actually be getting its act together.  An ounce troy is about 31 grams so the metal content in that same Fiend, if made out of pure silver, is close to $26.  Back in the early '90s the price of silver was closer to $8 an ounce and so there was this creepy corelation between the MSRP -  retail price - of LOS blister packs, and the market value of silver bullion of the same weight of metal.

In the 21st century, with all the new technologies we have, it just strikes me as wrong pay now-inflated silver prices for lead figures.

That discussion goes a bit sideways when you start to discuss the shift to pewter, which is largely tin, and that metal plummeted in price from the late 80s but has been on an upswing since the dawn of the new millenium such that it is about ten bucks a pound.

[smokingwreckage]

Well, the transition from lead to figurine is a huge value-add, and remember Reaper (if the name doesn't raise too many hackles) started out doing trophies, medallions, etc, and ditched it all in favour of figurines.

My "$10 per figure" is from the perspective of someone wanting to pick up a few extra figures. For a box I'd be looking for better figures per $.

So we got 8 UNE commandos, they're all single-piece, 10 nightmares, single-piece and pretty lightweight, and the Fiend, assuming you just go for casting from the original moulds; or that hypothetical new moulds are for single piece figures (could be a good idea, IMO, nobody likes gluing stuff together). So, 19 figures, let's call it 20 to represent the fiend. At $100, average kickstarter dude calls that $5 a figure.

EDIT: the model I linked to earlier has extra arms and an extra head in the blister, so actually $8 for a UNE trooper with separate arms, example, the TOW-7 trooper, might be $6-$8 and guys like the Commandos and most of the Nightmares might be cheaper, say $5-$6... which lands the box right back in Clark's $100 range (but doesn't account for boards or books, of which I know nothing).

ANOTHER EDIT: I followed a small KS where the guy contracted out to have the models cast in resin, due to tin prices, but by the time miscasts etc were accounted for, he wished he'd done it all in pewter

[themailedfist]

Sorry gents,  I don't check this forum often.  I was rather a fan of the LoS Yahoo Group because of the push nature of email versus forums.

But anyway.

Where are you now with the idea of re-doing models? 

--Robert

[Clark]

Sorry gents,  I don't check this forum often.  I was rather a fan of the LoS Yahoo Group because of the push nature of email versus forums.

But anyway.

Where are you now with the idea of re-doing models? 

--Robert

At a standstill with between one and three choke points.

[Scoutzout]

Any way we can help Clark?

[themailedfist]

Sorry gents,  I don't check this forum often.  I was rather a fan of the LoS Yahoo Group because of the push nature of email versus forums.

But anyway.

Where are you now with the idea of re-doing models? 

--Robert

At a standstill with between one and three choke points.

I suggest grenades, speculative fire, and a general lack of concern for one's well being.

--Robert

[Clark]

There has not been much futher discussion about the guys here organizing something.  The last word from Marco on the matter is that he wanted to see a business plan that could feasibly get the figs into a number of stores (150? I can't remember the number off-hand).  There are almost half a dozen reasons (some more interesting than others) why I am not in a position to do much other than in an advisory role, atleast until the summer. So there it stands.