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Author Topic: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS  (Read 2283 times)

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Offline Dave Chase

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Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« on: March 07, 2013, 11:33:08 PM »
Do you think the re-release of Legions of Steel (LoS) should advance the time line of the universe?

I think yes.

Why, because it would allow an update of the rules, new miniatures (in look and function) and allow more flexibility in game story, along with some possible new races or tech.

IMO, I think the older rule set should be .pdf free as an introduction game rule set, and have a small new rule set that is completely free also. (talking along the line of the first box set rules, black box)

The complete new rules should be a minimal cost since there are so many miniature rule sets out that the competition (IMO) is too great to hope to get the general target audience to consider it.

Miniatures and printed cardboard (heroes) figures should be the costing items.

Back to time line;

I would like to see an advance of say a decade, with the Machine war having 2 lulls in it.

The machines suffered a set back from Project Junction Point (1st lull) and then another lull that they (machines) created. The 2nd lull is because they have learned that if they do not keep pushing the living races, they (the living races) will start to go back to old habits and fighting amongst themselves. This in fighting at a certain point will allow the Machines to strike hard and in surprise at the living races.

Also by having the 2nd lull, there could be more rules (campaigns) for race on race fighting which may help develop the game and miniatures.

Just some thoughts to try an generate some more usefull activity on the fourms.

Dave Chase
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Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 08:26:11 AM »
Yeah, something like this works for me. You really want a good excuse for everyone to fight everyone ;)

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 11:48:46 AM »
Hi all
 This being my first post, I must apologize if it comes off argumentative. I have to disagree with you as to advancing the timeline. While it might be beneficial to those already familiar with the game, I can't help but think that it would be detrimental to the success of its reincarnation. LoS and its initial release was by all accounts a huge success, so why try and reinvent the wheel. IMO a relaunch should focus on the release of the original Black Box. Perhaps update its look a bit but keep its core the same. What will make a release successful is new players, not catering to the couple dozen still playing. It would be far more beneficial, even to us old timers, to see consumer demand increase and a relaunch be successful. I don't see any benefit to overly complicating its initial release, if anything your only tampering with something that has proven to work. Besides, should the initial release be successful, you will end up with a player base that is now clamoring for more. Then you should start advancing the timeline.   

Offline Helleiner

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2013, 01:42:18 PM »
I have to agree with Wyatt.  If LOS is re-released then it should be in a form that all former players will recognize and remember.  That would mean the original rules/counters/miniatures, etc.  After the launch generates "buzz" and new gamers the company can publish new rules for advancing the timeline  This has the benefit of two major points - 1. Purists can ignore anything they don't want to use and stay with Version1 without feeling they are being milked for cash and two, a second product is a second income source and therefore helps the company survive.

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2013, 04:24:19 PM »
Ok, call me a bit slow, but are you saying you don't want new updated rules that clean up and add more to the game?

Or are you trying to say

That you do not want to see any advance timeline in the story?

The idea that I presented was to not change the story line but to advance on down the line. Ie 10 or 20 years later from the first.

Why? Well IMO it is the best of both worlds

If the fan base (among some other factors) had been a large and strong one, LoS would most likely not dropped off the game radar. We need more fans (gamers) in number purchasing the game. Just doing a rerelease of the game as it was, is just relying on old glory to carry it through hoping that it will live again.

If work is done to improve the game while keeping the feel and easy playability, we can draw in players who would like something different and not feel like they are playing something that is old. Something that only the diehards play with on an old game.

Now this is not to sound rude but just stating some facts. Let me give you a real world example of a game that faced this situation because it updated without losing the feel and kept to the well known universe it not only survived but grew into several more computer, RPG and books.

Battletech. (just early notes I am a big battletech fan and I worked for WizKids, LLC)

Battletech was big but lost support from the game company due to many small reasons.  But it never really lost its hard core fans around the world. I called them the 5,000 and dying.

Why call them the dying? because they knew every rule of the game but would rarely teach new players. New players could not buy the rules and more often could not buy the miniatures. Many times if the rules and miniatures did show up forsale, one of the 5000 and dying would buy them up. Since there was nothing new, new players into playing miniatures would put their money into games where they could get new things.

Along comes MechWarrior: DarkAge (Click based), and the threats, insults and yelling from a majority of the 5000 and dying were heard very loud. They didn't care that Randal was rehired by the company to bring it to life, they claimed we (WizKids) was going to kill their favorite game.

Well, I spent about 3 months attending many game conventions where the 5000 and dying would go to play Battletech. I would show them some of the upcoming miniatures, explain that new players loved being able to get to play with mech, specially painted mech and that once players feel in love with MechWarrior: DarkAge, it would open them up to wanting metal miniatures, miniatures that they could paint themselves and new scenario's and down the road if DarkAge took off, WizKids was going to update and re-release the BattleTech line. The entire line, but with out money from DarkAge it was not going to happen.
(this is but a nutshell of what I said and did. No lies just truth and listening to their questions and giving more truthfull answers.)

It worked, and we did not convince them all to go along with it but enough of them did because once they saw that there were new players and that these new 'guys' were going to spend money, the majority of the 5,000 and dying jumped in. Less than a year after DarkAge took off Battletech was reborn also and is actually still alive and well today while yes, most all the clickly games have passed on. (different story there as to why)

So, unless the few dedicated, die-hard, loyal fans of LoS have lots of money to throw into just reprinting a game and its miniatures to watch it possibly die again in competition with the other  new miniature games, this game most likely will not be redone or re-released.

That is a professional opinion of mine.

No insults intended to anyone.

Now, I am just a loyal fan also, and LoS & how it is  going to be handled is up to Clark and a few others behind the scenes.

What I said and will restate here again, is that LoS as it was needs to be re-released in a clean, updated version, with some new rules and new miniatures.  This does not mean that the old miniatures are worthless, actually the opposite because I want to see the entire story line as it was kept and add another 10 to 20 years of story line to it.

That means players can pick and choose where in the story they want to play their game at. Campaigns from the time line can be played out and see if you do better or worse than the story line as written.

This means that new players can join in, with new miniatures, old reprinted miniatures and the feeling of joining something new being done. Not just rehashing an old game that most have maybe heard of from several decades ago.

Please, feel free to refute my points and reasons, because maybe you will have some good solid points that I need to learn. This is not saying that I am right and you are wrong, it is saying that from my professional experience in the game hobby industry, the above is normally the case of the situation.


Dave Chase
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Offline Kindred

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2013, 09:30:17 PM »
No... You are completely correct in all statements and assumptions

Offline bobloblah

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2013, 05:54:55 PM »
No, Dave, I think you're spot on. I think some conflate "advancing the timeline" with changing the rules, but, to my mind, the two are not synonymous. That's not to say that improvements (and hence changes) to the rules shouldn't be made, or that miniatures and other game components shouldn't be updated; I definitely think these things need to happen. But "advancing the timeline" is just another way of saying that you want to give yourself the creative breathing space to tinker with the rules, background, and aesthetics, all without stomping directly on what has come before.

Or, at least, that's my take.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2013, 07:50:45 PM »
I'm not opposed to advancing the time line in theory, I just foresee it as a major hindrance to LoS initial release. LoS is a dead game system, any attempt to re-release it should be should be for all intent and purpose regarded as the release of a new game system. There are a few dozen of us die hards, and maybe a few 1000 more to which it would be an obscure, and distant memory. Advancing the timeline would put far too great a stress on its initial release. Attempting to cram into an initial release all the material from the black box, blue box, expansion set, junction point, alien source book and planet storm and then add 10-20 years of history is just too much to ask. Additional you need to have every model ready for release, or else risk angering your market. Furthermore you are now going to ask retailers for a large chunk of shelf and rack space for a game that no one has heard of. The black box was a fantastic initial release, and could be again. A complete game in one modestly priced boxset that was very consumer friendly and doesn't impose to much risk on the part of the retailer. I'm not opposed to advancing the time line, I just think there is a lot of material to cover before you get there, and any attempt to do so in the initial release would just result in a heavily diluted story line that wouldn't grab the attention of new players and could ultimately jeopardize the success of a re launch.

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2013, 11:17:24 PM »
Though you make some good points, Wyatt, the idea of advancing the time line is keep the game fresh.

There is no need for what you describe to be done.

Those products are already complete minus the miniatures.
There maybe some rule tweaking to make all the parts smoother in transition but what you are describing has not been suggested by anyone.

Base box game core rules, supplemental rules and scenarios have been free on this forum for months.

The idea of advancing the time line is just to refresh and create new scenarios for those who have played and for the new players, they will not feel like they are behind because of the old players who have done it all and know all the tricks. (a perception thing even if not true.)

The other idea of advancing the timeline is to allow for new equipment and stories.

Otherwise, sticking to the old only, means nothing new unless you want to expand it into more races and cultures which would change a lot of scenarios and create new levels of issues.

As for retailers, game support is much more important than shipping support. Many would rather have help promoting and selling the game than how quick they can get 10 tons of material.

As note this thread is just open discussion about the possibility. Nothing has official been done about anything other than opening up talks to try and get LoS re-released.

Thanks for your input. It is always good to hear from dedicated players what they want and how they view things.

Dave Chase
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 07:32:56 AM »
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I wasn't referring to shipping support when I mention rack and shelf space. It's a reference to a retailers available space to market and sell products. The shelves and racks one sees when you walk into a game store. Retailers principle concern is turn over rate, how long does it take you to sell all the product you have (and have paid a wholesaler for) and turned it into profit. Retailers will regard a "new" game like LoS as a high risk product, they would be hesitant to dedicate sections of display racks and shelves for an unknown, unproven product. I think the black box was one of the key reasons LoS was the success that it was back in the day. It seemed as though every game store one went too, had atleast one on the shelves shortly after the games initial launch. The reason why, is that it didn't pose much of a risk on the part of the retailer. Hence almost everyone was willing to carry it. 
In other threads there is also talk about updating the look of LoS, and redesigning the line of minis. All of this will take money and resources that would appear to be in short supply. I see a redesigned and revamped Black box as being both financially viable, and as means to bring new life to the game and more importantly much needed revenue. While the pdfs might be available on the site, I think we could agree that stacks of printed pdfs from a cicra 1990's game just aren't pretty. New gamers coming into a game store to try out a new game don't want to be confronted by a bunch of old fogies (myself included) bearing stacks of printed paper sheets stapled together, and playing a game with a bunch of miniatures they'll never be able to find. They want to play the game that they can then buy, that's right there on the shelf. Again, I'm not against your idea, I just think there are alot of steps that need to happen first before we get there and I personally regard a new black box as the best means by which to get there. It would allow Clark to focus his time and limited resources on updating just two races, a tile set and one book, and then bring a marketable product to the table. 

Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 08:47:55 AM »
LOL,
Sorry, Wyatt, I think we both did not clearly state what we meant in various posts.

What this latest post you did, is what we are leaning toward.
But even that takes some work.

The miniatures on how they are produced even if not revamped or changed will still take the most time and money.

The box set, basically almost the entire way that LoS was produced is the basis for the re-release. No need to change that which is not broken.

When I was talking about product support, I was referring to things like posters, tournaments, online 'active' forums and questions answered by the company reps.

(I was the Volunteer Coordinator for WizKids, LLC)

That makes a huge difference, with any Brick & Mortar store to know that the company stands behind the product besides just trying to sell the product.

I think you and I are on the same page for priorities, I just want to have discussions now before LoS is re-released about the future of possibilities instead of later and we stall out while 'fighting' over what is next.

Ie, I want to develop a 1 year, 3 year and 5 year plan that is not rigid but does have goals that if reached (once reached ;) ) we know where we want to go after that.

Dave Chase
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Offline grendeljd

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 09:10:48 AM »
Dave,

For the sake of clarification, am I correct in thinking that your point of musing in this thread ~overall~ is whether or not to advance the timeline of LoS, but NOT necessarily have that story advancement occur within any kind of initial re-released product [whether that ends up just being a 3rd edition rulebook or a full new 'Black Box' edition]?

If that is what you are thinking, I tend to agree with the idea. I think the best ideal option for a great re-release product would be to create a new basic boxed set with revised rules & background [but not worrying about advancing the existing storyline yet], updated graphics & new sculpts of the basic figures from the original [with separate arm sprues for the UNE at least], plus maaaaaybe one or two extras [Maybe a succubot for the Machine, and a UNE trooper with a weapon other than the blaster or Plasma projector].

Again, that would be ideal in my mind, but it'll take some effort to get to that point.

Advancing the timeline is something I would also like to see, but that can happen with expansion supplements.
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Offline Dave Chase

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 10:57:40 AM »
 grendeljd,
That would work for me also.

Let me point out that my first and most important priority is to get LoS back out with support (ie company can answer questions, make more figures and such).

This thread is more ramblings from me to try and get people talking again.

In an idea setting, I would like to see a retail box, basically the old black box set, which has the simple/basic rules and the figures are all one piece. Possibly resin/plastic with each race/faction of a different color.
Then have a hobby box, like the blue box set, which has assembly required and the full rules (not including tabletop or the additional scenarios).

Then have the scenario pack (all the scenarios), a universe pack (alien races and scenarios which are hinted at in the box sets), table top rules, RPG, and more.

Possibly get some fiction books out there also.

Big dreaming there, but it could be done.

Dave Chase
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Offline Archimedes_12

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Re: Time Line in the Re-release of LoS
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 03:35:21 PM »
Here's how I understood the initial post... 

Updating the timeline: Advance the storyline about 10 or 20 years down the road.  This would allow an explanation of the why things would look different (i.e.- new sculpts).  So it would not make the old models obsolete, just different versions of the same thing.  As a comparison, look at Space Marines.  Their look has evolved over the years, and this is explained in the storyline as new versions of armor, Mk1, MkII, etc.

Updating the rules: Keep the core rules pretty much as is.  The only changes would be some streamlining.  For example, including any erratas and updates that were incorporated into the rules in the past.  Also, maybe anything that it is felt needs changing based on fan input.

If this is case, I am totally behind it.  I think this is a wonderful idea.  LOS has always been a favorite game of mine, and I would love to see it return.