Legions of Steel Forum

Legions of Steel => General Discussion => Topic started by: Clark on April 03, 2011, 05:54:38 PM

Title: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 03, 2011, 05:54:38 PM
Some LOS trivia.

The name for the Nachtmacher grenades was taken from a similar system used in the independent comic book release, American Flagg.  The original only involved humans but the grenades or rockets could be set at particular frequencies so that the attacker could wear a visor that could see through it. 

The UNE FTG grenade takes its name from the 80s techno song Fade to Grey by the group Visage.

The Mark I Assault Fiend almost didn't make it into the basic set.  Artist Rob Prior, who did the Black Box cover said to us that we have to include him, and then put him front and centre in the art.  The original conception had a UNE section against 12 Nightmares.

The Behemoth was originally envisioned as an armoured power-loader from Aliens or (what would later be) an armoured version of the APUs from Matrix Revolutions.  However, Tom Frank's interpretation was simply too good to not run with it.

The Fantasians were an imaginary empire created by the Canadian government to act as the enemy force for military exercises in the late 1980s.  They were obviously based on the Soviets, and found their way into Legions of Steel as a foil to the UNE.

The UNE forces are based on Canadian military organization, circa 1992.  A change of doctrine came about with the adoption of the M-16s (C7) and the 5.56mm round for the section.  It also changed the tactics.  Prior to dividing a section into assault groups one would peel off the corporal the the heavy weapon troopers to lay fire from a flank while the remainder of the section advances.

The concept of the UNE, Machines, Fantasians and Black Empire are Clark's.  The Infranites came from Marco and Dave MacKay. However, there was significant cross pollination with Tom Frank writing significant portions of the UNE and Fantasian history.

Tom Meier came to our rescue to sculpt the Trooper, Heavy Weapon Trooper, Nightmare, Mark I Assault Fiend and Behemoth.  Apparently, he has never done any other sci-fi miniatures.  When we approached him he commented: "There are two people you can trust: the Germans and the Canadians."

Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: SgtHulka on April 03, 2011, 06:19:30 PM
Tom Meier?! I had no idea. Then again, back then I wouldn't have had any idea who he was.

Who sculpted the rest of the line?
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: sergeant_hastp on April 03, 2011, 07:31:07 PM
I loved battling the fantasians.

Every time they invaded Canada, they began with high morale, and pushed hard, but we always slowed them down with our versatile defensive positions, aggressive counter patrolling and then turned them back in the end.

But they kept coming back to try again!  That's resilience!

:D
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 03, 2011, 07:46:13 PM
Tom Meier?! I had no idea. Then again, back then I wouldn't have had any idea who he was.

Who sculpted the rest of the line?

Dave Summer and another fellow.  Marco dealt with them, so I don't have a clear recollection.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 03, 2011, 07:48:48 PM
I loved battling the fantasians.

Every time they invaded Canada, they began with high morale, and pushed hard, but we always slowed them down with our versatile defensive positions, aggressive counter patrolling and then turned them back in the end.

But they kept coming back to try again!  That's resilience!

:D

When I became the unit recruiting NCO, one of your boys came to Toronto to recruit for the Toronto Scottish. 
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 04, 2011, 10:20:30 PM
Tom Meier?! I had no idea. Then again, back then I wouldn't have had any idea who he was.

Who sculpted the rest of the line?

Dave Summers and another fellow whose name escapes me.  Dave was tall and lean and the other fellow was short and round, if I recall.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 04, 2011, 10:21:55 PM
I loved battling the fantasians.

Every time they invaded Canada, they began with high morale, and pushed hard, but we always slowed them down with our versatile defensive positions, aggressive counter patrolling and then turned them back in the end.

But they kept coming back to try again!  That's resilience!

:D

Canada is the Great White North and we were being invaded from the north! How north is that?  How cold is that?
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: sergeant_hastp on April 05, 2011, 12:36:55 AM
I loved battling the fantasians.

Every time they invaded Canada, they began with high morale, and pushed hard, but we always slowed them down with our versatile defensive positions, aggressive counter patrolling and then turned them back in the end.

But they kept coming back to try again!  That's resilience!

:D

Canada is the Great White North and we were being invaded from the north! How north is that?  How cold is that?
And you just had to know that Fantasia was a shitty place to live when their ultimate goal seemed to be Pembroke.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 05, 2011, 02:40:43 PM
Jeff Wilheim (sp?) - Mark II Assault Fiend, Gremlins, Scorpion Bot, among a few others.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 05, 2011, 04:54:50 PM
Jeff Wilhelm: that sounds right.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 09, 2011, 03:17:02 PM
The cover artist for LOS, the black box, the original map boards and counter art was Rob Prior.  He also did the cover for Scenario Pack One based on a sketch by me.  I also did the fold out's counters.  The rulebook's black and white cover was by Nelson Costa.  The Scenario book was, of course,  "Diamond Dave" MacKay.
  The Advanced Rulebook's cover was painted by Sean Couchie, again off of my drawing.  Same with Alien Sourcebook.
  I did the new mapboards in the Scenario Packs although something funky happened with the film work that caused the registration to be off.
  Junction Point was drawn and inked by me and coloured by Kevin McGibbon.
  Planetstorm was painted by Sean Couchie from my drawing and the Planetstorm Logo was done by Wes Johnson.
  Finally, the blue box second edition box cover and rulebook were by Kevin Long.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Vok Ytalinov on April 09, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
Also, I think Geoff Valley may have sculpted the UNE recce troopers, though I'm not absolutely sure.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: sergeant_hastp on April 09, 2011, 08:51:58 PM
Finally, the blue box second edition box cover and rulebook were by Kevin Long.

You mean that Palladium guy?
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 10, 2011, 12:00:13 PM
Yup, the Palladium guy.

Actually, one of the nicest guys I've ever met.

And, yeah, i think it was Geoff Valley and the RECCE troopers.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: sergeant_hastp on April 10, 2011, 02:30:11 PM
That's cool.

I came to despise Palladium, but I never despised his art.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: grendeljd on April 11, 2011, 10:22:41 AM
That's cool.

I came to despise Palladium, but I never despised his art.

Before I went off to Sheridan, you used to say my drawings reminded you of Kevin Long's stuff.

I remember being really impressed that he did art for LoS** - I liked that painting for the blue box edition, all the action is awesome. I only ever wondered about it being set outdoors considering it was for the indoor rules, but all that action would have been tough to include in a small hallway scene.

**not to say that I thought Global Games was small potatoes or anything, but to attract essentially a famous name in RPG illustrations at the time was pretty cool.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: bobloblah on April 11, 2011, 11:31:55 AM
I always liked Kevin Long's art; Rifts RPG was the first place I saw it. I recognized the style instantly on the Blue Box cover. I was far more surprised by the resemblance of Coalition Skelebots (from Rifts) to the Machine Nightmares. I'd played Rifts off and on for a few years, but I didn't discover Legions of Steel until a few years ago. I know there are only so many ways to skin a robotic skeleton, so to speak, but still...
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 11, 2011, 02:09:12 PM
I ended up being the "main" artist dealing with Kevin Long when he did the box art, discussing designs and details.

Because we had sent himso much material...I had to admit that i had totally ripped off his style (that amazing black and white robotech style), for several of the illustrations in the books.

Dude actually said he was flattered i had done so.

THAT is a truly great guy.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 11, 2011, 04:52:27 PM
At the time of the Blue Box there was still money in the kitty so I guess Marco figured a "name" artist was the next marketing ploy since everything else we tried had not resulted in a breakout for the game. 

But I think that Sean and Tom were just getting their groove. There's not much you can criticize about the Planetstorm cover: it looks top-notch professional. Meanwhile, the line art from everyone was getting more polished.

Aside from the obvious self-interest, a breakout for LOS would have meant that Global could have paid the artists what they were worth as well as putting them on the map to be in demand by other companies.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 12, 2011, 04:48:38 AM
I just get the feeling that getting anywhere in miniatures takes a long, long time. I think LOS was possibly the only background/ miniatures mixing some space-opera with a very hard sci-fi aesthetic. Even looking around now, there's a half-dozen GW knock-offs and one or two Japanimation inspired visual themes. Not much that combines powered armour with a western realism aesthetic.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 12, 2011, 05:31:24 AM
GW had a 15 year head start on Global Games.  Warhammer, 40k and Space Hulk predated LOS by 10, 6 and 4 years respectively. Those were huge gaps to overcome at the time. Now it is even worse so a new approach is needed.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 12, 2011, 06:03:21 AM
I have been part of a struggling family business for some years now. It's hardly related at all, but philosophically I'd say there are two ways of looking at business, although since my background is farming, both are conservative:

1. Play to your strengths. Find out everything that LOS did or can do that provide some sort of advantage in player's headspace or the marketplace. Then do that.

2. Lowest cost = best margin, lowest cost = lowest risk.

3. If you can find a way to do both, you win.

I'm not trying to tell you how or what to do, of course! If I come off as opinionated it's because this is an area I find fascinating. To me, business and war are the two unquestionable testing-grounds of philosophy; moral issues aside, if you succeed, you were right. If not, you were wrong.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 12, 2011, 08:04:49 AM
To me, business and war are the two unquestionable testing-grounds of philosophy; moral issues aside, if you succeed, you were right. If not, you were wrong.

Battle is the only valid test.
Victory is the only valid result.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 12, 2011, 12:12:09 PM
Well, so far as not breaking out went...

The rack deal was supposed to help get people in different area's playing, and then running demo's to atact more people, basically, seeding North America. 

Where the rack deal went sour was...(and Clark knows teh numbers far better than I)... we had a basic number of packages we needed to sell to break even, Clark also had a number that was "optimal", and then there was "whoot" numbers.

We actually pretty much hit the optimal number of packages sold.  The problem was the unsold packages, the returned ones - we shipped SO many we were into the "WHOOT" level of sales...but, we had to produce a lot of components we hadn't planned for to meet the demand for orders.  So we paid for (literally) tons of components we didn't really need, that basically somebody stored for 3 months and shipped back.  We had basic sets in stock forever, but now cash was tied up, meaning new releases to keep interest got pushed back.

Inferno, as well as it did do, and as much fun as i had working onand playing it, just further diluted the time we had to keep LoS fresh.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 12, 2011, 06:28:20 PM
I can't remember the specific numbers but Wes basically summed it up. The initial orders we got exceeded all expectations, but so did the returns. I really can't fathom it because Rack Deal was a well put together piece of merchandising. The retailer just had to pull it out of the box, fill up tge rack and it looked awesome. We gave wicked terms with a money back guarantee. But why the hell would you not set it up to see how it sold?

While it was time for a revised box, the Blue Box was the result of all those returned rack deals.  Global wasn't in a position to simply re-release the basic set in a different box because we had too much inventory and no money to make thousands of Nightmares, Commandos, and Mk Is. So Behemoths, Recce Commandos, Succubots, Predators and Gremlins got tossed in for more variety for the players as well as our inventory usage. 

The Blue Box allowed Global to weather the Rack Deal fiasco.  As far as I know it was the triple kick from Star Wars (West End's bankruptcy),  Inferno (the Europeans not paying) and the X-Game that took out Global. I was in Vancouver by that time so Tom and Wes probably know better than me.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 12, 2011, 09:57:48 PM
Omg.  yeah. 

Had West End not gone tits up, Global had the rights to produce all figures and rules for a miniatures game for Star Wars.

Like, 2 years before Phantom Menace came out.

The Europeans were...I dunno, Marco dealt with them.

And, **** the X-Game.  **** it right up it's paranormal ass!

Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: sergeant_hastp on April 13, 2011, 01:43:06 AM
What is the X-Game?
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: smokingwreckage on April 13, 2011, 06:02:29 AM
Wasn't it an Xfiles FLAVOURED trivia game with Questions on paranormal, religious, and odd history topics?

Oh dear merciful crap, to have Star Wars right in your grasp and then snatched away!! That is the personification of cruelty!
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 13, 2011, 06:38:17 AM
The X-Game was Trivial Pursuit-ish with the question categories being something like religion, parapsychology, something-something-something. 
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: grendeljd on April 13, 2011, 11:06:50 AM
Omg.  yeah. 

Had West End not gone tits up, Global had the rights to produce all figures and rules for a miniatures game for Star Wars.

Like, 2 years before Phantom Menace came out.

My god , that would have been an awesome boost for you guys. And there would have been some pretty sweet fig's come out of it, I am sure.

Quote
And, **** the X-Game.  **** it right up it's paranormal ass!

LOL - I had never heard of the x-game, I am guessing it never made it past conceptual stage?
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: bobloblah on April 13, 2011, 11:28:39 AM
LOL - I had never heard of the x-game, I am guessing it never made it past conceptual stage?

I'm pretty sure it was released; I've seen a copy for sale at Noble Knight.

And, **** the X-Game.  **** it right up it's paranormal ass!

Don't sugar-coat it - tell us how you really feel!
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 13, 2011, 11:34:17 AM
Oh, no.  It was released.  It's problem was it was "created" by somebody else, and Global produced it.

The creator had a syndicated radio show about teh paranormal, and contacts in stores...so, basically, all teh work was "done", we just had to produce and get teh product to his outlets.

In reality, he handed over a steaming pile of crap, and tried to pin the issues om Global.

btw - I have, in my possession, Stormtrooper figs from "our" Star Wars line. 

Yeah, one of the worst moments of my life, leaving the floor at Origins that year, where we had the masters and basic rules on display, after seeing the huge response...and the first thing we hear in the bar is "Holy crap, West End just folded today".

And then Lucas decided to hold off on game licenses.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 13, 2011, 01:54:57 PM
Apparently, Marco had lined up something like $2 million in sales.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: bobloblah on April 13, 2011, 02:31:32 PM
Holy ****! I'd heard about this before, but not those details. What a heartbreaker!
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on April 13, 2011, 03:02:30 PM
But not nearly as interesting as how we lost the Star Trek license. I leave it to Wes to explain that one.  ;D
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: grendeljd on April 14, 2011, 09:34:54 AM
btw - I have, in my possession, Stormtrooper figs from "our" Star Wars line. 

Yeah, one of the worst moments of my life, leaving the floor at Origins that year, where we had the masters and basic rules on display, after seeing the huge response...and the first thing we hear in the bar is "Holy crap, West End just folded today".

And then Lucas decided to hold off on game licenses.

Yikes. Does not sound like it was a good day, lol!

Uh, actual Global Games Star Wars figures? Yes please! Show 'em if ya got 'em! Post some pics to the media gallery already - like, yesterday!!
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Nukelavee on April 14, 2011, 02:20:59 PM
Star Trek?

uh, not sure why you think i know what happened there.... :o
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Karpov on June 05, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
btw - I have, in my possession, Stormtrooper figs from "our" Star Wars line. 

Yeah, one of the worst moments of my life, leaving the floor at Origins that year, where we had the masters and basic rules on display, after seeing the huge response...and the first thing we hear in the bar is "Holy crap, West End just folded today".

And then Lucas decided to hold off on game licenses.

Yikes. Does not sound like it was a good day, lol!

Uh, actual Global Games Star Wars figures? Yes please! Show 'em if ya got 'em! Post some pics to the media gallery already - like, yesterday!!

I actually have one of those Stormtrooper minis as well.  I also have a German rifleman from the Stalingrad game GG was working on.  Would love to know more about the development of the later as there is no mention of it in any thread here (that I have found).
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: grendeljd on June 05, 2013, 04:08:28 PM
btw - I have, in my possession, Stormtrooper figs from "our" Star Wars line. 

Yeah, one of the worst moments of my life, leaving the floor at Origins that year, where we had the masters and basic rules on display, after seeing the huge response...and the first thing we hear in the bar is "Holy crap, West End just folded today".

And then Lucas decided to hold off on game licenses.

Yikes. Does not sound like it was a good day, lol!

Uh, actual Global Games Star Wars figures? Yes please! Show 'em if ya got 'em! Post some pics to the media gallery already - like, yesterday!!

I actually have one of those Stormtrooper minis as well.  I also have a German rifleman from the Stalingrad game GG was working on.  Would love to know more about the development of the later as there is no mention of it in any thread here (that I have found).

I believe Marco still owns the masters for those WWII figures. If a relaunch of LoS successfully occurs, it is possible we might see those WWII figures get made as well.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Karpov on June 06, 2013, 10:39:34 AM
I believe Marco still owns the masters for those WWII figures. If a relaunch of LoS successfully occurs, it is possible we might see those WWII figures get made as well.

So how far along was the rulebook (my 'pre-release' copy had alot of missing sections) and how many minis were sculpted?  The only mini I have was of said riflemen running.  Were there both Soviet and German mins sculpted?
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: bobloblah on June 27, 2013, 02:25:37 PM
It already sounds like you know more about Stalingrad than any of us regulars here. The only people who might know more would be some of the individuals who did work directly for GG, but most of them are extremely infrequent posters.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Dave summers on August 15, 2013, 01:23:01 PM
I was the main sculptor on the legions of steel line(love them or hate them)just to let you know that I am still alive and sculpting.i am very excited about the re release of this game,I always thought it deserved more popularity.If you are interested in me sculpting some of the new figures just let me know,I really enjoyed working on this game.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: grendeljd on August 15, 2013, 11:56:16 PM
I was the main sculptor on the legions of steel line(love them or hate them)just to let you know that I am still alive and sculpting.i am very excited about the re release of this game,I always thought it deserved more popularity.If you are interested in me sculpting some of the new figures just let me know,I really enjoyed working on this game.
Welcome aboard, Dave! This is great to have another one of the original people involved show up around here... Did you just happen to see a post by me over in the onelistsculpting forum earlier today?
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: smokingwreckage on August 16, 2013, 10:02:08 AM
I worship the Infranite BAP, Dave. Just a classic miniature.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Dave summers on August 16, 2013, 03:57:14 PM
Yes I did indeed see it on 1 st sculpting,I had no idea it was being revived Grendel.and thanks for the support for the bap,of course it was all down to the design 2 d guys.Also if anyone was wondering I think I know where the master molds may be located.as an aside the unseen hunter guy is still owned by me as I was never paid for that piece.
Title: Re: Credit where credit is due.
Post by: Clark on August 17, 2013, 08:42:19 AM
LOS figures are in a bastardized scale.  The idea behind Stalingrad was to simulate the same style of meat grinder battles in an urban warfare setting and that would give Global Games an excuse to release a new line of figs.  The point was to be historically accurate and have the figs in a standard scale that would allow players to use off the shelf models of vehicles and such.  I can't recall if they were in 1/48th or 1/32nd. You have to understand the economics of the situation back in the day. We basically broke even on the rule books while the figs could gross a 200% mark up. The rule books were essentially catalogues for the figures that followed.  There was nothing novel about the Stalingrad figs, they were just well done and intended to be marketed as part of a game system.