Author Topic: Space Elves (?!) et al.  (Read 3542 times)

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Offline Clark

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Space Elves (?!) et al.
« on: March 25, 2011, 06:56:16 PM »
It looks like I have to deal with this before it becomes more embarassing than the whole "fascist space walrus" debacle.

I did not say that the Infranites are space elves; I said they are our version of space elves.  Apparently, a poor choice of words on my part. Better would have been something like "our answer to".  Better yet would have neen to have included the following explanation in my post regarding the various races and armies.

In 1994, when the Alien Sourcebook was comeing together, I noticed a pattern in the way races tend to appear in games. There tends to be certain archetypes. Elves and Infranites are part of the same archetype.

Then, 16 years later, I found that someone else had noticed the same patterns:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveRaces

This observation is by no means a scientific principle, and if you read some of the examples at the link, you can see that the pattern isn't universal and that there can be a lively debate on how particular races or species from particular settings fall into various classifications. But here is sort of how it breaks down:


ArchetypeLotRLOS40K
MundaneHumanUNEImperial Guard
StoutDwarfFantasianOrks
FairyElfInfraniteEldar
High MenNumenorianBlack EmpireSpace Marines

Even that takes a few of liberties in the interpretations and direct comparisons among individual figures don't necessarily agree with the trope or the archetypes.

The point is that we didn't set out to do D&D in space or to copy 40K, but we were aware of the need for a limited number of races/armies. And I was aware  that there were archetypes but I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time. So those limited number of races had to cover off as much philosophical real estate as possible. The Infranites happened to match the fairy archetype quite well when we started filling them out. 

A lot of that was unconscious. UNE FAVs were my idea; Fantasian Quadcyles were mine or Tom's. So why do Infranites have jet bikes (too)? Something to do with the archetype unless Dave days otherwise.




« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 11:46:33 PM by Clark »

Offline Brother Jim

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2011, 11:28:12 PM »
Because Infranite jetbikes are way cooler than anything eldar.

We just need some female sculpts.

Offline Clark

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 11:49:55 PM »
Something else I thought of:

Elves live in the woods right?  Elves like jet bikes?

In StarWars, you use land speeders on land, you use snow speeders over snow, but in a forest do you use a "forest speeder"?  Hell no! you use a jet speeder bike.

Arfiel

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2011, 11:36:10 AM »
I have to say that not being the designer of the game I can only speak my view of how I run my army.
I dislike the image of a "space elf" because I saw the Infranites as less fragile than I get with the whole elf image.

As for the jet bikes I see them as one small part of a larger war machine. The Infranites also have some big punch
and heavy armour.

Mostly with me, calling them Elves ruins the whole idea of fielding an Infranite army at all.

I see the similarities in the whole tribal piece, ect...
but I will always go with the predator society image when I field my Infranites (if they ever see battle again)

Offline sergeant_hastp

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2011, 10:17:27 PM »
I get what Clark talks about earlier. 

Just that you need a race that's a bit more advanced and technologically superior.  Infranites did share a lot of their tech with the Earth.

So, like Elves, the Infranites are few and ultra-awesome-est.  That comes through, even if their culture and attitudes are totally different.

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2011, 02:27:02 AM »
Yeah, I guess if "approachable and friendly superhumans who like, if a bit patronizingly, regular humans" is your definition of Elf.

For me, and this is probably a GW thing, Elves always seem to be light, fragile specialists. The Infranites are the exact opposite! Heavily armed and armoured, outfitted to take a reasonable sort of a swing at virtually any mission.

Personally I'd say the Infranites are somewhat close to the Numenorean/ High Man trope, while the psychic-dominated, ancient and archaic Black Empire with their ritualised and rigid battle-orders are somewhat Elfish.

To me the Infranites might be a different species, but their overall feel is "bigger, badder Humans". They approach trade and war in a very human fashion, have a smaller population and marginally better tech. They use guns, not exotic super-weapons, which is actually a bit more primitive than the UNE laser/plasma paradigm, but they've perfected firearms to a remarkable degree - like the idea of ancient heroic smiths forging Damascus steel blades; human, mundane, ancient, but also superior.

Offline Clark

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2011, 11:24:12 AM »
In one stereotypical conception, elves are 5' tall and get -1 to constitution and such.  But a broad section of fiction will have a species who is humanoid, but distinctly non-human, and they are smarter and stronger with strange, mystical powers.  Look at Star Trek's Vulcans.  They fit the archetype too, although there are different from Infranites in many ways.

Offline sergeant_hastp

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2011, 02:30:48 PM »
So do native americans in a lot of fiction.

They are often portrayed as having a kinship with the spirit world, supernatural senses, great fighters, wisdom that would rival Yoda...

Offline Kindred

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2011, 06:21:33 PM »
Honestly, I always though that the. Infranites were more along the lines of the predator type aliens (they have tribal look and, as we discovered in the newest movie, actual tribes)

As I posted in the other thread, I always saw the black empire as the elvish analog. Ancient, ritualistic, advanced, debauched and looking down on the rest of the universe.

Offline grendeljd

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 08:47:02 AM »
I think I agree with Arfiel & Smoking Wreckage - the Black Empire, although a very nobility driven & ultra high tech race of 'high' humans, may fit the generic 'elfish' category better, ala the Eldar. Its tough to say, though - there is some overlap, as the fellow on tvtropes mentions. Other than the coincidence of the 'Jetbikes', I don't think the Infranites quite fit any of those categories too closely. Which is kinda good!

There is also the mention of psionics falling under the elvish category, which is a salient point in the Black Empire background.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 08:50:02 AM by grendeljd »
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Offline Brother Jim

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2011, 11:25:58 PM »
I'm kind of OK with my Infranites being "elves".

As long as they get to be Tolkien or Celtic myth elves and NOT D&D elves.

Offline sergeant_hastp

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2011, 04:44:00 AM »
Look at Star Trek's Vulcans.  They fit the archetype too, although there are different from Infranites in many ways.

To be totally geeky, wouldn't Vulcan's fit the High Men role? As they are part and parcel of the UFP.

The Klingons are obviously Stout

The 'Fairy' archetype I'd have to hand to the Romulans, with their advanced plasma weaponry, neo-archaic culture, and 'magical' cloaking devices.  Not to mention their connection to the 'HighMen' Vulcans.

Offline Clark

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2011, 08:41:39 AM »
The Fairy/High Men distinction generates a lot of discussion on the tropes site. For LotR, one characterization has the Numenorians as High Men and the Elves as Fairies; in another the Elves are High Men and the Maiar are the Fairies.

In Trek, your Mundanes could be non-Star Fleet, or non-UFP, or even the red shirts. Then your Star Fleet officers would be the High Men.

I don't see the Romulans as the Fairy type as they don't have anything up on the Vulcans (I've never seen them use neck pinches or mind melds).  From what I recall, the only high tech they had were the plasma torpedoes and cloaking device, the latter of which was promptly stolen by Kirk. Otherwise, they were behind the learning curve. I think the Bird of Prey was originally described as being sub light, implying that the Romulans didn't have warp drive (which didn't make sense).

Offline Kindred

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2011, 10:12:15 AM »
Personally, I think that it could be broken down like this:


LotRLoSWHFWH40k
HumansHumansUNEEmpireImperial Guard
High MenNumenoriansInfraniteBrettoniansSpace Marines
Low Court SidheElves??Wood ElvesTau
High Court SidheMaiarBlack EmpireHigh ElvesEldar
DwarvesDwarvesFantasiansDwarvesSquats
Corrupt ElvesOrcs??Dark ElvesDark Eldar
Corrupt MenUruk-hai??Chaos Warriors/BeastmenChaos Space Marines
Non-live/Undead??MachinesTomb Kings/Vampire CountsNecron
Horde/Swarm????SkavenTyranid


Or maybe the Infranites belong in the Low Court Sidhe category...



for those of you unfamiliar with the low versus high court of the Sidhe/Fae
oberon, titania, Nuadhu, Lugh -- these count as High court.
normal every day faeries, leprechauns, brownies, etc -- these are low court.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 12:25:14 PM by Kindred »

Offline Nukelavee

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Re: Space Elves (?!) et al.
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 03:08:58 PM »
Well...

The Infranite design/concept, as a race, was heavily influenced by both North American Tribal and Predator "aesthetics".

The jetbikes, if i remember correctly, were the first "vehicle" type unit, because a certain member of Global was overly fond of the race. 

The "tropes" Clarko discusses are valid, but, I seem to recall there was a desire to keep distinct flavours also thru the use of "squad" sizes.  Infranites were on the "few, but individually powerful" end of the scale.

Black Empire?  :(  It's a mess, honestly.  3 different people worked at differnet times on their background, and they never did truly gel as well as they could have.