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Author Topic: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures  (Read 3897 times)

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Offline Dave Chase

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New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« on: March 07, 2013, 11:23:55 PM »
Clark talked creating a new look in miniatures (you can find one example in the media section of the forum).

While updating the miniatures with a new look may help with both the electronc to re-release of the game rules, I am kind of fond of some of the older (original box) minatures.

So, here I am wondering, if anyone would like to consider the following concept.

The new material game release will (should be) a decade or so down the time line from the original game. (I will create another thread about that timeline so please stick to miniature discussion as the focus of this one.)

UNE and the others races including Machines have evolved in their technology, specailly in Material production. Hence the new armors.

Now for the question beside the look, should the old miniatures still have a place in the game?
I say, yes.

And here is why; as the older suits get worn out, damaged beyond repair, the new suits will be issued, but there will always be some of the older suits of around. As some units get complete overhaul of new armor, the old is donated to local militia, given to new recurits for training, or just put into storage.

Now for the next question which will be pushing my own rules for posting in this thread.

Should the new suits confer some type of bonus or game addition as compared to the older suits? Ie. should the new suits have some actual game benefit in comparison to the older suits?

Now, I am not talking about just long running time, longer air supply, etc, but actual game/dice/modifiers to the game in comparison to the older suits.

Dave Chase
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Offline bobloblah

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2013, 05:14:45 PM »
Clark talked creating a new look in miniatures (you can find one example in the media section of the forum).
I actually think that concept drawing is fugly. Aside from being way too chunky, there's too much visual clutter, and it just down't say "military hardware" to me; more like "awesome cool anime!" but not in a good way.

While updating the miniatures with a new look may help with both the electronc to re-release of the game rules, I am kind of fond of some of the older (original box) minatures.
You and me both. I definitely think the miniatures need updating, but I am entirely unconvinced that the general designs are the problem. Look at a GW Space Marine - they haven't totally redesigned them any time in the last 20 years because the basic design was solid.

Now for the question beside the look, should the old miniatures still have a place in the game?
I say, yes.
I'd agree. To follow the GW analogy I used above, you can still use your Rogue Trader era minis in an official tournament, as long as they haven't retconned the specific type out of existence to try and get you to buy more.

Now for the next question which will be pushing my own rules for posting in this thread.

Should the new suits confer some type of bonus or game addition as compared to the older suits? Ie. should the new suits have some actual game benefit in comparison to the older suits?
I'd say no. I really don't think there's the design space available for this; D6 just doesn't have the range for a small enough adjustment that you don't render the old version obsolete. Sorry, Dave.

You should create a poll, though.
Best Regards,
Bobloblah

Offline smokingwreckage

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 08:40:21 AM »
I would like to see resculpts of the old designs. They are classics with a few quirks that need fixing and some soft detail in places that could be improved. The WW2 in Space feel of them has never been surpassed IMO. I think reworking them for crisper detail, better symmetry, and giving a bit more free play to additional packs, stowage and so on - in keeping with the "one man APC / WW2" idea - is all that is needed. It would also be an opportunity to standardise the UNE Powered Infantry to the same actual scale!

Offline Scoutzout

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 12:22:38 AM »
Refine not redesign the miniatures. I personally did not like the newer concept art.

Dont make any old school stuff weaker.  I have a massive Machine army. Making them "Legacy Systems with Y2K Code" will make me sad.


Offline peterpotente

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 04:14:08 PM »
Refine not Redesign!!!!

----- that´s a really cool slogan. 

Instead of making all new models at the beginning, I  would improve those which are already "there", too.For example the casts have to be cleaner,a few other poses would be nice, add bases like ...microart....and  present them in the right light with perfect up-todate painting via pics, graphic novels etc , make them limited, add something unique to the blisters like stickers which are part of  a collectible graphic novel.( as a child I loved those comics which were packed with the "Masters of the Universe")
-it would be much less expensive to start
-  a new or so called outstanding miniature design isn´t always responsible for success of capturing the collectors heart, like here..... watch this prizes.
http://www.erzgebirgische-holzkunst.eu/epages/243717.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/243717/Products/F5247 
Okay....they com along PREPAINTED 8)
- and sorry in advance, but I have to say that .....the new concept trooper (for me) looks like those other usual SF-Troopers who had eaten too much Viagra.
The "original LoS"miniatures line really has a face/taste, and it would be a pity if this would be lost or softened up.

I really would like to be more specific,more argumentative, cause this miniature question is probably only a little part of a all-over-strategy. Perhaps in another thread.....

Best regards
Peter

Offline Wyatt

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 12:15:34 PM »
I would simply update some of the older sculpts. The Commandos in particular always looked a bit top heavy to my. I would just use some of the original troopers (the storm front PBI, EMP, or Flechette, Carl G types) with detachable arms, as the base to reworking the commandos. While your artwork is impressive, it just doesn't seem realistic to me. Personally all I could think of when I saw your work was, how the hell would I even begin to field strip and clean that thing. That and, I'm going to need more CLP!

Offline bobloblah

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 08:18:12 PM »
Hi Wyatt, welcome to the board!

That artwork wasn't done by anybody here. It was early concept work from a game studio Clark (the IP holder for LoS) was working with on a potential iPad app/game.

From the few that have reponded thus far, the thinking seems to be that the general design of the LoS minis was sound. I don't think there's much agreement yet that they should be left untouched; mini production has come a long way in the last 15 years.

If you spend some time getting opinions on other sites (i.e. not from the remaining diehard LoS fans), the original minis are considered pretty dated. As much as I like them, I can't really argue with the assessment. They are very much of their time, some more so than others.
Best Regards,
Bobloblah

Offline grendeljd

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 03:33:16 PM »
Refine not Redesign!!!!

----- that´s a really cool slogan.
Agreed! And a sound approach to the LoS line. I would absolutely love to work on updating the look of the most 'dated' looking designs, but keep the distinguishing aesthetics of the originals. That concept art that Clark posted was really good, but it didn't quite have an LoS feel to it, and suffered mostly from the Tron effect. So much sci-fi design is influenced by either Tron or Iron Man these days it seems. Tron is a gorgeous movie, with staggering character & set designs, but its about abstract programs represented by humanoid people. Designing military grade power armour with all kinds of bands of lights around the outside just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Looks great, just not a great concept.
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Offline grendeljd

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2013, 09:53:32 PM »
I meant to comment on the idea of using old figures alongside new ones. I think that is a great idea & makes perfect sense. A mixture of old & new as old 'equipment' is phased out for the latest editions. When I used to play 40k, I was always looking to kit-bash a mixture of Space Marine types within each squad I put together.

I also agree with Bobloblah about changing stats for different versions of the same unit type. The scale of the game does not allow for any significant stat variation, and I don't think it should.
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Offline Karpov

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 12:57:08 PM »
I am all for only refining.  The overall look and feel of the minis is fantastic.  The UNE helmet shape/design is iconic.  Changing that alone would be horrific (ex. new concept art).  The entire line is solid, save a few odd elements.  They all scream for plastic re-makes.  Having a comapny like Wargames Factory crank out the plastic sprues at their relatively cheap prices versus high quality would be a boon for LOS'ers.  Just my 2 cents.

Offline Clark

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2013, 03:00:48 PM »
First off, members of this site and fans of the game are not "LOS'ERS"!  :P  (Maybe "Legionnaires"?)
Secondly, the agreement I made with Romain regarding the digital version is that he would have complete artistic control over the new look while keeping the gameplay as close as practicably possible to the mechanics of the boardgame.  He worked on many large computer game releases so he knows what he is doing and I wasn't going to second guess his choices for the medium and the platforms.  That being said, it is an open question as to whether new designs for the digital board game would cross over into the real world.

The general consensus on the Forum is that a facelift is in order, even if the same basic designs are maintained to keep "the look" (for the Commandos, wolfhead helmet, big pauldrons; for the Nightmares, spindly goggle-eyed and grimacing with large greaves; and the glorious cow-headed, chicken-footed, flamethrowing, pitfork-stabbing look of the MkI).

That is a separate question from whether there should be a difference in game performance, and whether new figures should be released representing improved versions of the line troops.

If you want to keep the purity of the straight D6 system you have basically two choices: play with the ROF and kill numbers, or play with the range bands.  If you are willing to accept an additional die roll - even for a minority of cases such as an exact hit or near miss (which only arise once out of every 6 rolls) then you have a lot more flexibility.

There are at least two reasons why new figures should perform better. First is that logically, new versions incorporate new technology specifically because they do perform better, Secondly is a matter of buiness necessity in that there won't be a great demand for new figures that are functionally identical to the old ones. They might catch the eye of some new players, and some established fans might want some more visual variation in their army, but I suspect that a new figure with improved performance will sell better.

Keep in mind that the LOS philosophy on point values is to represent, as close as possible, the actual combat value of a figure rather than some economic or arbitrary value that pushes you into an arms race (regardless of how historically accurate or business savvy that might be) so old figs will still be functional.

Offline grendeljd

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2013, 11:55:43 AM »
I like the idea of being called a Legionnaire, as a fan of LoS  ;)

I wonder if it wouldn't be a slippery slope though, giving new figs new improved stats... I still think the scale of the game makes that difficult to achieve, and as has been debated much elsewhere, I would not want to tinker much with the existing scale. I do agree with your reasoning on why new figures would perform better, I'm just not certain they would require that to be appealing. As I mentioned above, personally I liked having a variety of visually different figures in my Space Marine units for 40k, without being too concerned about their statistical performance. But that's just me - I would love to hear more opinions from others on this. All you lurkers out there, speak up!!  :D
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Offline Clark

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2013, 06:25:53 PM »
There are at least three mind sets about this.  The hobbyists love the figs and the painting; the tacticians focus on the challenge of the gameplay; and the munchkins want the bestest, most awesomely devastating army possible.

New figs, well done, will appeal to the hobbyists without any modifications to the game stats. The tacticians would find it more interesting to have the variety in stats while the munchkins want more dakka and search for loopholes in the UPV system that might be opened up by those variations/improvements.

I suppose there is a third choice while keeping a straight D6 roll and that would involve new fire options or some bonus while using existing options.  Maybe a bonus on suppression for heavy weapons. Maybe 3 dice on autofire.  Stuff like that. Or different firing modes like with the burst lance and hellfire cannon (the burst mode was specifically introduced to boost the firepower of the weapons to be in line with the figures that carry them; that might be a way to correct the deficiency in the high ROF Fantasian weapons).

Offline bobloblah

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2013, 10:26:09 PM »
It's definitely something that's up for debate. As I've said before, my personal preference is avoid wholesale improvements to the stats, but update the look of the miniatures while maintaining the original aesthetic. Easy, right? My reason for the former is the scope of the D6 system, and the reason for the latter is what I've heard from many former fans of the original game: loved the gameplay, loved the look of a lot of the miniatures but think they're a bit dated now...
Best Regards,
Bobloblah

Offline grendeljd

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Re: New miniatures versus Old Miniatures
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 09:57:38 AM »
I do like the idea of minor changes to things like weapon stats, that would then be reflected in UPV accordingly to maintain balance for new versions of old figs. I was a big fan of the change for the MK1A1 Assault Fiend, and always used that figure over the original MK1 whenever I could. The addition of one leadership & the much more effective [IMHO] Hellfire Canon was fantastic.

But then again, it also led to my preference to virtually ignore the 5 MK1 fiends in my collection... there's gotta be a pretty careful design balance where you can manage to keep both old & new versions of fig's appealing enough to mix n' match, if you decide to alter any stats.
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